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Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)


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But he was drunk! It's ok, I hate when my alcoholism brings out my misogyny too :(

But seriously, a couple of things here: no-one is saying its ok, just that it's understandable - people can do all sorts when they're drunk. Also, sexually explicit flirting (especially when drunk) is not proof of misogyny.

Oh no, he got me.

Well, yeah, I did get you. The grasp of logic demonstrated in your post is nil.

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Isn't the point here that by drunkenly making sexual advances at someone he barely knows in the context of a professional request, he's revealing a creepy, treat-industry-contacts-as-potential-fucking-material way of viewing his preferred sex?

I mean alcohol would explain it but if you get drunk at the office party and make a lecherous pass at someone from Accounting it's definitely still not okay. You have to apologise for that shit and being a creppy bastard.

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Yeah, so it's all tied up.

No, now the the trial-by-strangers-on-the-internet has to run its course.

You should probably go to the gaming press with your incontrovertible proof about what his actions reveal about his personality and views on women.

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Isn't the point here that by drunkenly making sexual advances at someone he barely knows in the context of a professional request, he's revealing a creepy, treat-industry-contacts-as-potential-fucking-material way of viewing his preferred sex?

I mean alcohol would explain it but if you get drunk at the office party and make a lecherous pass at someone from Accounting it's definitely still not okay. You have to apologise for that shit and being a creppy bastard.

I would hazard a guess that most people will have drunkenly and regrettably made an alco-pass at a colleague or friend *coughs*. Admittedly, the creepiness of the approach here is on a whole other level, and the medium has made it embarassingly permanent, but it's not evidence of definite evilness.
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Yes, except that she added him to facebook, which IMHO took it out of the work domain. Plus said she was getting divorced and looking for a job, which is sharing personal information. If you reply to "how are you pretty lady?" with "getting divorced" that sets the tone as a personal conversation.

But he was drunk! It's ok, I hate when my alcoholism brings out my misogyny too :(

I'm uncomfortable agreeing with both of these (even though it's my first instinct), because it puts the responsibility of the interchange on her shoulders.

Twenty years ago, I'd be in a similar situation, and what starts as friendly banter very quickly turns into something more sinister. Ignoring it didn't make it go away, you didn't want to confront because it might be considered hostility towards a client (in this case, it was often fellow scientists attending a conference/workgroup/meeting I was busy organising). And in the end it always led to very awkward moments when meeting face to face at the conference. Today I'd not even mention the "getting divorced" bit, or volunteer any kind of personal information - but that's a life lesson learned.

Why should it be wrong to volunteer "I'm getting divorced"? Why does a facebook invite equal "she was asking for it"? I have a lot of people on facebook who are added as acquaintances (with reduced privileges to the stuff I share), that doesn't mean I deserve to be harrassed, nor am I asking for it. A divorce is a real life situation, akin to "I'm moving house" or "my kids are starting a new school" - that's just a stressful event that you should be able to tell anyone without it becoming an invitation for random dick.

Quick straw poll: has anyone here talked like this on social media to someone they barely know? The concept is completely alien to me.

Have you seen the pms schoolkids send each other these days?

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Oh fuck off, Smitty.

Well that's an excellent rebuttal. You said it, not me:

Isn't the point here that by drunkenly making sexual advances at someone he barely knows in the context of a professional request, he's revealing a creepy, treat-industry-contacts-as-potential-fucking-material way of viewing his preferred sex?

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Its interesting because since getting involved in this thread I've made efforts to read more about feminism. I'd consider myself to be a feminist, and someone who lives by my principles and actively challenges prejudice. So for the most part I agree with feminist writings that gender shouldn't define a person's role in society, their wage, their rights, how people talk to them, etc. And I think that we should make efforts to overcome the lingering stereotypes (eg that action toys are for boys and home-making toys are for girls, or that men are more logical and scientific whilst women are more caring) and discrepancies (eg in how people with real power within organisations, politics or society are female), especially where these have been internalised by women. But I do struggle with the idea some feminists promote, that this comes down to a substantial proportion of men hating women. I think most day-to-day sexism is more likely to be misguided affection - a desire to protect, socially inept attempts to engage or be funny - or a sense of women being slightly scary foreign territory, or based on historic role differences, rather than a global dislike or deliberate attempt to disempower women. I think we need to differentiate between what is socially clumsy, an attempt to shock/amuse/get attention, and what is actually malicious otherwise we will end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I know it sounds naff, but the internet is still a relatively new frontier, and pretty much unregulated by law so it is hard to judge whether it is reflecting social values, or dominated by a particular cultural subgroup. There is a new opportunity for a meritocracy because you can create your own persona rather than be immediately judged by your physical attributes, and this should make it a true equal opportunities space. However, at the moment this is not the case. It is a shame that what I hope is a noisy minority have used that anonymity to make it the last bastion for bullying and expressing prejudice, but perhaps proof that any attention at all is better than none. Just as in the real world, we clearly need to make women feel safe to express opinions online (whether on the net or in live gaming platforms) without it being acceptable to use sexual content to intimidate them or make them feel unwelcome - that is a culture shift that can't happen soon enough, and relies on both men and women speaking up to say when content is unacceptable and the use of appropriate legal consequences when it enters the realm of threats or harassment. However, I'm not sure that we can make a global rule about it never being appropriate to flirt or be sexually explicit in social media. Surely that is dependent on the relationship and the individuals. Similarly, I don't feel like sexist and aggressive talk online is equivalent to the same things said in person. The net has a culture of exaggeration and shock value humour and whilst it isn't nice and shouldn't be socially acceptable, I very much doubt that most posters of 'give her a slap' or 'get back in the kitchen' comments would actually believe these are appropriate real life gender expectations or are revealing their convert inner hatred of women. In my experience, the threshold at which someone would flirt online (or 'cyber') is not the same threshold at which they'd flirt IRL (let alone share bodily fluids), and the threshold to be provocative and offensive online is not the same IRL either.

Geekette I've run out of +'s so I'll give you a virtual slap on your sweet arse*

* Note that this is a joke and I agree with everything she's said here.

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I think this has run its course for the time being. Lets just go over everything, drunk or not the guy said some things he should not have said at all, he claims to have wrote that stuff because he was drunk but drunk or no it doesn't excuse the fact that there was a part of him that thought it was acceptable to say that stuff anyway. What is worse is that the person he said that stuff to took it and played along, divorce or not a conversation, especially a business or work conversation should not ever take that tone. I can see why people say the divorce thing can be seen as an invite but I really disagree it is just an ice breaker like "my dog got ran over" if people are having a chat the biggest thing that is going on in their lives currently is one of the first things to come up. I could understand if these two people were long time close friends or something but these people only know each other from a handful of meetings, I don't blame that developers friend for posting that conversation on the internet, I'd be mad too if that happened to someone I knew.

I'm not going to go into the details of the apology, I'm not here to argue whether the guy is really sorry or just sorry he got caught. I just find it concerning though that this kind of thing is considered acceptable on some level because of the industry it is happening in. I mean its bad anyway but on a personal level it upsets me even more because it is happening in a medium I care for far beyond a normal level.

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Quick straw poll: has anyone here talked like this on social media to someone they barely know? The concept is completely alien to me.

I know people who have. In fact, where I work is very male dominated, and pretty much every woman who works there under 30 has had at least 1 incident that I know of where someone at work has sent them something inappropriate completely out of the blue, usually (but not always) someone they don't have lots of contact with at work and have just added over Facebook. These include;

- a recent girl who was taken on who within a few days of chatting to a guy at work had him send her pictures of his dick saying "now show me yours" completely out of the blue (and to give her credit I thought her reply of "I don't have a dick, sorry") was pretty funny. He then constantly hounded her for sex. He's not working here anymore.

- another girl changed her number after her immediate manager kept sending her messages, which didnt directly say it, but hinted at wanting sex. He asked her for her number saying he needed it for work, she refused. He looked in her records for it, which she found out about after him asking why the number on file wasn't correct. She complained. He wasn't sacked, but he's been moved to a rubbish job instead now.

- one girl put photos of her holiday on Facebook, which had some shots of her in a bikini on the beach. She got a message off a guy at work saying "you look hot in that bikini, it makes me wanna fuck you". He was on the agency and had only been there a few months.

- most new girls will have almost everyone there add them immediately to Facebook. One girl started and within 5 mins someone had popped out to have a sneaky root through her pictures on Facebook, and was telling people about the "sexy" ones on there. The girl I mentioned in the first one used to come in and tell me how many friends requests shed had that day from people she didn't know that worked there. They were usually on other shifts, and had spoken to her once at most, often not at all.

- two girls just don't add people anymore unless they know them fairly well, as they've got fed up of people sending them crude messages

There's more too, but I have to actually go into work soon and haven't really got time to type it all up! That makes it sound quite bad, but most people that work there draw the line at the Facebook stalking I mentioned (at least, I think they do!) and the majority of it comes from agency workers that aren't there that long, partly because they are massive knob heads. That said, there have been several managers that have been involved in stuff like that, or people who are well in with people high up who think that nothing will come of it. Thankfully though, those people are generally gone now, in fact I played a big part in getting rid of one of them who liked to say stuff like "I bet you enjoy sucking cocks, don't you" to some of the women that worked there, which I'm quite proud of.

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I'm not sure anyone suggested her mention of her divorce was an "invite" either, I know I most certanly didn't mean it in that manner when I mentioned it, it seems to be more that the nature of their relationship appears to have been skewed somewhat.

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I don't think anyone has said either of these things. He is responsible for being sleazy, and she wasn't 'asking for it'. However, she took a number of actions that let him reach that point (she added him on facebook, made the conversation about her personal life rather than work, and didn't set any boundaries). So instead of being part of the solution she was by default part of the problem.

Isn't this the whole miniskirt argument all over? "Don't lead them on", "don't go out alone at night", "don't stare back", etc?

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Yeah, I don't disagree with geekette, my first thought was also "you git, why did you mention the divorce". I don't think it's the way forward - neither is "ignore them and pretend it didn't happen", or any of the other bits of advice people give.

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I don't think anyone has said either of these things. He is responsible for being sleazy, and she wasn't 'asking for it'. However, she took a number of actions that let him reach that point (she added him on facebook, made the conversation about her personal life rather than work, and didn't set any boundaries). So instead of being part of the solution she was by default part of the problem.

I know you didn't mean it like this, but what you're saying does remind me somewhat of the 'She was wearing a short skirt so it's partly her fault she was sexually assaulted' line of thought, which is all kinds of wrong. I don't think any of her actions let the situation reach the point it did. She was being awkwardly polite with the 'Hahahahas', pretty clearly hoping that would be the last sexual comment and that he'd move on. Indeed, I suspect the conversation would have remained unreported had he not written his final comment 6 hours after the conversation had, for all intents and purposes, ended. You don't have to set boundaries to not expect sexual advances of this nature.

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