Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

[Unofficial Who]

Just finished reading that piece about the Game Jam implosion. There are other articles from participants coming out now.

http://msminotaur.com/blog/?p=187

You can literally trace back the entire crumbling of this show to one individual – Matti Leshem, CEO of Protagonist, a Brand Energy company. Here was a person who, from the get-go, rubbed me the wrong way – he and I were definitely different people. He is the one who headed up removing even un-labeled water bottles from being allowed on our desks. He is the one I heard asking around if there was any way that we could drink the water out of empty Mountain Dew cans.

He is also the one who asked my team the following question:

“Do you think you’re at an advantage because you have a pretty girl on your team?”

All love to my teammates as they declined to engage. But, after pushing more – he got a rise out of me. He got me to, with an embarrassed and flushed red face launch into a statement about how his question is indicative of everything that is wrong in our industry in terms of sexism. That no, we weren’t at an advantage because we had a woman on our team – we were at an advantage because I’m a damn fine programmer and game developer. We were at an advantage because my skills allowed us to be at an advantage – not my “pretty face”.

He had the audacity to approach me later and explain that it wasn’t personal. This wasn’t a personal attack on me – he knew this was a sensitive topic in the industry and wanted to address it.

Well, you know what? It was personal. You sat there and overtly questioned my skills, my intelligence, my life. It was so personal, that I can’t even wrap my head around the fact that someone could even pretend to believe that it wasn’t a personal attack.

And, on top of that, it was a completely inexcusable way to address the issue of sexism in games. You address this by having a rational conversation about the nuances of how it feels to be an underrepresented part of an industry that you love. You address it by making a marginalized subset feel safe. You address it by allowing the minority to feel like they have a voice – a voice that is being listened to. You don’t address it by shoving cameras in a woman’s face and insinuating that the only reason she was brought onto a skill-based competition was because she was nice to look at.

In addition, I’m trying to participate in a friendly competitive game jam. I’m not here to stand on a soapbox and discuss sexism, this isn’t the venue for it. It’s a venue for being a corporate sellout, sure – but this is not where I am going to engage in a discussion about sexism.

I spoke with my team, and as a group decided to not engage any further lines of questioning about the women participating in the jam (out of the 11 people participating, there were two women. This means that there were two all male teams and two teams with one woman each). We wouldn’t give him the rise he was looking for out of us. We were there to power through and make a game.

So there I was – at about 99% capacity of what I could deal with in terms of corporate bullshit and sexism – and then the final straw. The two all male teams were questioned in a similar fashion:

“Do you think the teams with women on them are at a disadvantage?”

That was it.

I cannot be a part of something that, in any way, feels like this is an appropriate way to expose game development to the world. The other teams also declined to engage, but the very notion that this is something that could potentially be written into a story – the notion that it, even if disproven throughout the entirety of the show, would even be addressed is what completely did it in for me.

I will not put my face and my “stamp of approval” on something where this is even a question. No, we are not at an advantage because we have women on our team and no, we are not at a disadvantage because we have women on our team. We all have advantages and disadvantages because of our varying skills and strengths. Having the audacity to be a woman does not hinder nor help any of these things. Being a woman simply means that we are women.

See also http://soundselfgame.com/?p=302 and http://www.beesgo.biz/reality.html

with opinions at http://www.metafilter.com/137896/Indie-Aint-Just-a-Word and http://boingboing.net/2014/03/31/pepsi-producers-sexist-jibe.html

[Comrade]

That Indie Statik article was one of the worst written things I've ever read. I mean, Jesus.

[ThePixelbarks]

Does anyone think that Ground Zeroes has got off a bit light?

I've seen no mention of it from the usual commentators, with the only mention being an offhanded reference from Jeff Gerstmann, and it's been completely avoided in the thread until Harsin brought it up. It seems like people are avoiding the topic because Kojima is an auteur or something, or they don't want to provoke a reaction from overzealous fans.

I think he got off lightly, because the "Click bait" worthy part of the game was the length of the initial campaign.

While the "explosive" conclusion of Ground Zeros may end leaving a bad taste in some peoples mouth. The true nature of the events that take place in Ground Zero, only comes by playing through multiple times to complete all the various side missions and such. Skullface is probably the most evil character I've seen in a video game, but that conclusion only comes through the tapes and backstory that is hidden throughout Ground Zero.

In short, to be outraged, you actually have to put in a considerable amount of input into the game outside of that initial hour. Meaning most of the people who would have been outraged, won't get to see it.

[Chadruharazzeb]

Outraged by Evil Bloke doing evil things? That's what they do.

[Alex W.]

In short, to be outraged, you actually have to put in a considerable amount of input into the game outside of that initial hour. Meaning most of the people who would have been outraged, won't get to see it.

I does seem to be the right way of handling it, as it gives that plot point - which I think is honestly really atrocious and sophomoric - a degree of caution that Kojima's bombastic over-writing can't. Clever, but I'd rather see Kojima have the guts to take on these topics and the talent to do it in the open.

[Unofficial Who]

Looks like we have a contender for the most sexist game of the year already.

Bit of a surprise entry this one.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/04/15/moebius-review/#more-200607

Best "woman in refrigerator" moment ever perhaps.

But here’s what I can safely tell. You mostly play as the ludicrously named Malachi Rector (I couldn’t tell if the homonym of “Mr Rector”/”Misdirector” was deliberate, but considering everything else in the plot this would seem an optimistic reach), a New York-based British antiques expert with a purported IQ of 170, a photographic memory, and the personality of a spoilt turd. This is a man – and I promise this is true – whose psychology is based on his mother’s being eaten by a lion in front of him when he was a child.

[Mr Cochese]

It's about time someone made an Albert And The Lion game about that ill-starred trip to Blackpool.

[Mr Cochese]

Why is mayor_mike_haggar in the game?

[Harsin]

This is causing a bit of a storm on Twitter.

Speaking in an interview with Polygon, Alex Hutchinson, the game's [Assassin Creed 5] director, said that the developers were "inches away" from allowing players to choose between a man or woman as a co-op buddy in the upcoming shooter's multiplayer.

What stopped them? Hutchinson said it was "purely a workload issue." The team didn't have a "female reader for the character" at its disposal, nor did it have "all the animations in place."

Those damn pesky broads and their sexy swinging hips, think of all those poor animators.

[RubberJohnny]

Yeah, that was clearly a pulled-out-his-arse answer from someone not expecting the question and they've changed their PR tune since, but it's still pretty hilarious for the lack of awareness of how bad it looks when Ubisoft games have 1,000 staff and are so bloated they have completely unnecessary chess and hold 'em poker minigames but can't animate half of the population.

[Chadruharazzeb]

Pre-order cancelled.

[Dig Dug]

That's one of the things that gets to me with games like assassins creed, too many people are working on those games. All you get is a bloated design by committee piece of work which which ends up doing nothing significant and instead just piles on more and more content, and not even new content but more of what we already have. And if it does do something new the game will try and sell itself on its one new idea.

[Unofficial Who]

Most of this fuss has been caused by a mistep in communications. The new story about how multiplayer is integrated into the single player as a kind of Dark Souls thing makes sense. And it's not like Ubisoft is being all brogamer with the AC franchise given the range of ethnicities, religions and genders of the main characters. And in Child of Light all the main characters are female.

The original "it costs too much to do a femme rig" that's bullshit. You can use plot as a reason. But money and animation rigs? C'mon.

It's been depressing reading at http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/06/12/assassins-creed-unity-characters/#comments where the majority are telling anyone annoyed about this to just shut up and deal with it.

My favourite points.

"There weren't any female assassins in that time period. It's all about historical accuracy." (Let's ignore Charlotte Corday then won't we?)

"It's too much work to do the moveset for females from scratch." (Let's ignore that previous Assassin's Creed games had female characters in multiplayer, and Liberation had a female lead who had three sets of animations, one for each role she dressed as. Assassin, slave and noblewoman. And that was done on a budget.)

And whole bevvy of "it doesn't matter to me so you talking about it imposes on my right not to give a shit." (No really, some actually run with that line.)

And the one that had me deciding not to get involved at all in the debate

There is no ‘controversy’.

Feminists want you to be up in arms about the ‘less women’ in video games.

Guys only want female protagonists for 1 of 3 reasons:

Reason 1: You want to customize a slutty chick to stare at her breasts and butt all day long.

Reason 2: You wish you were the girl you are trying to make.

Reason 3: You are trying to pretend to be a girl to hit on guys.

Most girls don’t care whether or not the main character is a guy. (MOST)

As a guy I don't even want to waste time on this given that the response will be "shut the fuck up white knighter! STOP OPPRESSING ME!"

My girlfriend looked at some of the debate and said "Yep, not even going to bother posting my view."

The MRA's and brogamers ought to be proud. They've done more to cover Ubisoft's PR gaffe than Ubi has.

Rhianna Pratchett is on the money though, if it's only about cost and not plot why not just licence the Saint's Row character gen tool?

[Dig Dug]

This kinda reminds me of back in the day where for example all the Ghostbusters games would exclude Ernie Hudson because apparently making black people in games cost too much or something stupid like that.

[K]

The lead animator from Assassins Creed III was on Twitter yesterday saying that in his considered opinion, doing the animation for a female character would be one or two days work - most of the climbing and fighting animations would be pretty much identical, it's only things like walking and blocking out cutscenes that would take up time.

It's kind of moot as it's clearly not a resource issue anyway, but it was an interesting point.

[Ferine]

My understanding is that Unity's co-op is similar to Watch Dogs in that the player always sees themselves as the (male) main character, with other players represented by a selection of generic character models; naturally they also see themselves as the main character.

In one sense this makes the lack of female character models less egregious as you aren't creating or selecting a representation in the first place — unlike something like Saints Row or AC's competitive multiplayer — but on the other hand it seems that adding female character models to be seen by other players would be a trivial addition.

I feel like their attempts to excuse the situation, and that they apparently didn't see the question coming, are more problematic than the game itself.

[Fry Crayola]

Rasternauts had three female playable characters, and I can't even draw.

[Straps]

You think the Dead or Alive jiggle physics come cheap? You gotta pay for that sort of expertise.

[Eighthours]

In this isolated case, given that there are story reasons for the non-inclusion of female characters, I don't think there is much of a case to answer beyond the clunky PR fail. This seems to me to be mainly a hits-driven bandwagon jump by the videogames media (then again, Eurogamer also complained about the damsels in Spelunky so maybe they actually mean it).

It's a shame that this will give those who are opposed to better female representation in games the ammo of a '(Girl) Who Cried Wolf' get-out clause the next time that a real story happens - they'll be able to accuse people of having an agenda by pointing to the furore around examples like this. The smart way to fight this battle is not to fall into the trap of crying foul for the sake of it, as it just makes us look reactionary and silly.

As Keith Stuart has said on Twitter, it would be great if videogame outlets would start dropping points from review scores if they're actually bothered by non-representation of female characters, rather than writing hits-bait editorials but not following through when it comes to rating the games.

[Talvalin]

What agenda is going to be pointed out when a "real" story happens? Women wanting better representation in video games and kicking up a fuss?

[Spacehost]

In this isolated case, given that there are story reasons for the non-inclusion of female characters, I don't think there is much of a case to answer beyond the clunky PR fail. This seems to me to be mainly a hits-driven bandwagon jump by the videogames media (then again, Eurogamer also complained about the damsels in Spelunky so maybe they actually mean it).

You make a good point regarding the narrative reasons, I mean writing a story that completely precludes the possibility of playable female assassins in a series that has repeatedly included female assassins can't possibly be interpreted as a failure to represent women adequately as playable characters in videogames.

[RubberJohnny]

The story reasons are "there are four of this one guy because **waves hands**"

[TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap]

Is there a story in the Assassin's Creed games? I vaguely remember some subpar Dan Brown narrative about golden apples, ninjas, pirates and templars but I think that my final suspense of disbelieve kind of broke down when I found myself fighting the Pope who was wielding a magic staff in a battle of life and death before being lectured by some precursor space goddesses. To exclude female player characters in the name of historical accuracy is a bit rich after that.

[Capwn]

Someone I know explaining the problems of suddenly adding a woman into AC halfway through development. Hopefully next time they will build this into the foundation of their games rather than just asuming the default is a man.

1. Women don't move the same. They have a lower centre of gravity. They also have a smaller gate.
2. Mass Effect (terrific games!) is a narrative driven game, where combat is done through shooting. Not human interaction.
3. Clavicles, are shorter on females typically, this does work a OK in a narrative non close combat situation, but not for a parkour, heavy or grabbing people and messing them up situation.
4. Hands and props, and picking up props and handing them to people, or switching props from one hand to another.
5. Transforms. like the ones you want to move positionally in the hierarchy and not just have rotations on them. This goes on the same page of the book as scaling bones.
6. World. If you have a different skeleton with different sized limbs... Well then you have your work cut out for you. You can't share any of that super cool parkour animation any more.

[Monkeyspill]

Gate? Gait?

[Eighthours]

What agenda is going to be pointed out when a "real" story happens? Women wanting better representation in video games and kicking up a fuss?

That any complaints from Outlet X during a real story on this issue will be belittled by those who hate this whole debate by pointing to the fuss they also made during Not A Good Example Y. It's convenient chaff for dickheads to loudly dismiss decent points being made by having an example of previous behaviour that does appear overly reactionary. Making scattershot fuss about everything, rather than carefully targeting no-argument examples, can be counter-productive in the future, hence my reference to the dangers of crying wolf on this subject. Giving sexist idiots any ammo to use against decent arguments later is misguided, IMO.

[PaB]

Someone I know explaining the problems of suddenly adding a woman into AC halfway through development. Hopefully next time they will build this into the foundation of their games rather than just asuming the default is a man.

1. Women don't move the same. They have a lower centre of gravity. They also have a smaller gate.

2. Mass Effect (terrific games!) is a narrative driven game, where combat is done through shooting. Not human interaction.

3. Clavicles, are shorter on females typically, this does work a OK in a narrative non close combat situation, but not for a parkour, heavy or grabbing people and messing them up situation.

4. Hands and props, and picking up props and handing them to people, or switching props from one hand to another.

5. Transforms. like the ones you want to move positionally in the hierarchy and not just have rotations on them. This goes on the same page of the book as scaling bones.

6. World. If you have a different skeleton with different sized limbs... Well then you have your work cut out for you. You can't share any of that super cool parkour animation any more.

Da fuck is this shit?

You just need to have a female skinned version of the same character model.

[K]

That ACIII animator guy said that they really struggled to tell whether it was a man or a woman fighting when they looked at mocap footage. There's almost no difference in terms of movement, apparently.

[Eighthours]

That ACIII animator guy said that they really struggled to tell whether it was a man or a woman fighting when they looked at mocap footage. There's almost no difference in terms of movement, apparently.

Maybe everyone talking about massive time and expense are factoring in the cost of the exaggerated hip sway that seems to be pretty obligatory for female characters!

[Chadruharazzeb]

Maybe I played the AC games all wrong because the most I ever saw of the character was their back. They had a hood up, too, so I couldn't see their hair. Could be a fucking skeleton in there for all I know.