Ouch No More!

[IR354Lifeqhybot]

That people want to support the PAL XBox/GC market so there is a higher chance of more games beingreleased for both consoles?

Sorry, I don't agree with that. I bought the game on import because I wanted to play them before Christmas and I got them for £29.50 each. I don't support any console manufacturer let alone any division of the manufacturer. You think they give a toss about us?

That is the good thing about the GC, with Freeloader, you can play any game for any part of the world you like.

[Andy_Tanner]

For starters, the (relatively) famished Xbox and GameCube press would have pounced on both PoP and BG&E, and paraded both games in a fashion that most PS2 magazines (and their self-imposed reluctance to cover anything without cars, guns or cars AND guns as a focal point, due to the "supposed" make-up of PS2 owners) just couldn't commit to.

Plus, the blanket buzz of a multi-format debut would probably have boosted the total sales above whatever the fragmented, straddled Euro releasing manage to garner. If they go ahead at all, like.

I'd have loved to have seen how Soul Calibur 2 would have performed if it went through the same kind of wringer as PoP, and whether or not the GC version would have been the best seller of the trio.

hear, hear. add to that more than one publicity campaign for seperate releases and it all points to extremely bad management. if i'd been a part of the teams who, without a doubt, created two of the best titles of 2003 i'd be mighty pissed off.

[TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap]

One would think that Sony paid Ubisoft quite a substantial amount of money to keep BG&E and PoP exclusive for PS2 during the Xmas period, in the knowledge that they would miss out sales from the other formats. Wouldn't that be enough to compensate?

In the end the buying public is to blame. Ubisoft and Sony pushed these games (especially PoP) hard, including a Xmas PS2+PoP bundle and loads of ads. If people prefer to buy NFSU and FIFA200# anyway, what can be done?

[breaksmith]

In the end the buying public is to blame. Ubisoft and Sony pushed these games (especially PoP) hard, including a Xmas PS2+PoP bundle and loads of ads. If people prefer to buy NFSU and FIFA200# anyway, what can be done?

"To blame"?

The buying public buys what it wants, what sets its imagination alight. Well, warms it a little anyway.

If Ubisoft had taken on board that people will only buy into a game if it finds the basic premise enticing then we might well have seen a different story emerge. People want to modify cars, want to indulge their Max Power fantasies. People want to play football. Real football with, you know, Beckham and Henry and Rooney.

It doesn't make a Happy Meal's worth of difference whether these games (PoP, BG&E) play well - who wants to be an arabic prince or a green lipped eco-warrior/journalist when they could be shooting Johnny Foreigner upside the head or recreating all their favorite orc slaying moments from Lord of the Rings.

If Developers and Publishers want to make bucks, they have to start with a premise that everyone can understand, relate to and most importantly want to buy into. That might mean a license - Lord of the Rings, Pop Idol - it might mean a real world activity - modding cars, winning the Premiership - but without that then you may as well not even bother.

So in answer to "what can be done" - if you want your game to sell well, first make people want to play it, then fun to play if you do.

[Lazychu]

did parents trade the game in on the PS2 package so they could afford Mission impossible and Enter the Matrix?

More likely MOH:Rising Sun.

Edit:Also, sadly BS is right.

Maybe they should of got Justin Timberlake to voice the Prince in POP?

[JPickford (retired mod)]

One would think that Sony paid Ubisoft quite a substantial amount of money to keep BG&E and PoP exclusive for PS2 during the Xmas period, in the knowledge that they would miss out sales from the other formats. Wouldn't that be enough to compensate?

In the end the buying public is to blame. Ubisoft and Sony pushed these games (especially PoP) hard, including a Xmas PS2+PoP bundle and loads of ads. If people prefer to buy NFSU and FIFA200# anyway, what can be done?

Sony don't pay publishers for exclusivity. They give them a discount on the license fee.

[The Liberal Elite]

That might mean a license - Lord of the Rings

Who would have thought that the population of the earth wanted to watch as nerdy a thing as a bunch of hobbits talking gibberish and beating up orcs?

The game market isn't mature enough, or at least, the audience isn't, to want to take the chance with something that isn't familiar at the moment. It's a crying shame, as BG&E is an absolutely superb game that anyone could love. Give it a few years and either people will have become absolutely bored with the idea of games, or just bored enough so that they want something outside of footy games and racers.

maybe

[Beertiger]

"To blame"?

The buying public buys what it wants, what sets its imagination alight. Well, warms it a little anyway.

If Ubisoft had taken on board that people will only buy into a game if it finds the basic premise enticing then we might well have seen a different story emerge. People want to modify cars, want to indulge their Max Power fantasies. People want to play football. Real football with, you know, Beckham and Henry and Rooney.

It doesn't make a Happy Meal's worth of difference whether these games (PoP, BG&E) play well - who wants to be an arabic prince or a green lipped eco-warrior/journalist when they could be shooting Johnny Foreigner upside the head or recreating all their favorite orc slaying moments from Lord of the Rings.

If Developers and Publishers want to make bucks, they have to start with a premise that everyone can understand, relate to and most importantly want to buy into. That might mean a license - Lord of the Rings, Pop Idol - it might mean a real world activity - modding cars, winning the Premiership - but without that then you may as well not even bother.

So in answer to "what can be done" - if you want your game to sell well, first make people want to play it, then fun to play if you do.

let's hope some developers keep their integrity.

it's an inevitable spiral downhill and all you NFSU purchasers are to blame.

i think game developers should still concentrate on what they want to. I wouldn't want to play a game designed by people whose heart wasn't in it.

the general public aren't to blame. their ignorance is, that and greedy fucks willing to exploit it.

interestingly the ex-westwood guys that gave EA the finger and formed Petroglyph have got their first game under way

For strategic and contractual reasons, we are not allowed to give any details about the nature or publisher we're working with, but we can say that we couldn't have asked for a better license, project, or publisher.

hmmm a good license? From the ex-westwood guys? sounds ace.

[breaksmith]

The game market isn't mature enough, or at least, the audience isn't, to want to take the chance with something that isn't familiar at the moment.  It's a crying shame, as BG&E is an absolutely superb game that anyone could love.  Give it a few years and either people will have become absolutely bored with the idea of games, or just bored enough so that they want something outside of footy games and racers.

maybe

Can you tell the difference between a £40 bottle of wine and a £10 one?

I can't.

I do know that I want to drink vodka and coke with a squeeze of lime in it.

It's not a matter of "taking a chance" really, although I'm sure some would come over to the idea (£40 a pop aside (ha - comedy ed.)) It's just a genuine lack of interest. I really don't want to watch a film about a Lebanese family's struggle to send their daughter to medical school, no matter how witty, well observed and touching the portrayal may be.

I mean, just look at Pillage!!!!!!(oof - comedy ed.)

That will change when massmarket tastes do. When Amile is bigger business than LOTR, then we'll see BG&E sell above MOH: Rising Shite (he he - comedy ed.)

[The Liberal Elite]

yeah, but BG&E has as much character as some of those disney/pixar films the public laps up. and if they had made a film of it before the game it would have sold many many times more.

Prices are a definite block to the mainstream taking a chance on games like these. In that respect, it's not about taste, is it?

People didn't really know that they wanted GTA 3 until it started selling thanks to word of mouth. That was the dictionary definition of a Sleeper hit. Ubisoft want too much too soon if they're writing off PoP and BG&E. Which I don't believe for a second. The link in the initial post is still gobshite guesswork.

[breaksmith]

let's hope some developers keep their integrity.

it's an inevitable spiral downhill and all you NFSU purchasers are to blame.

i think game developers should still concentrate on what they want to. I wouldn't want to play a game designed by people whose heart wasn't in it.

the general public aren't to blame. their ignorance is, that and greedy fucks willing to exploit it.

I'm in the mood today.

What's this all about. I'm saying that you need two things - first a strong premise, second a strong game. In that order.

NFSU could be argued to provide that because it lets you mod cars really well. It does that bit - the point of the game - really well. The driving bit really is secondary to the modding and the modding is brilliant. Sure, it could have been better and if they had tied that to a great driving engine then it would have been better still but you can't deny that the bit that captured folks imagination - the modding - is aces. Yes?

If developers only want to make games based on original and/or surreal premises then fuck 'em, it's their funeral. The idea that creativity and commercial sucess can't sit side by side is rubbish. Admittedly, it requires a trust and understanding that's hard to forge but it's far, far, far from impossible.

The public aren't ignorant, they just know what they like, what they want to do. I think BG&E is fantastic - it really made me smile, deep down inside but why couldn't Ubisoft have taken their original inspiration from something a bit more real, a bit more tangible and then laid their glorious videogame smackdown upon that. The BG&E world is beautiful and occasionally inspired but where's the link to them out there? Where's the nod and a wink to Luke Mainstream and Helen Public?

Nowhere.

So why the fuck and blazes should they want to get involved?

[Venice Cull]

"To blame"?

The buying public buys what it wants, what sets its imagination alight. Well, warms it a little anyway.

If Ubisoft had taken on board that people will only buy into a game if it finds the basic premise enticing then we might well have seen a different story emerge. People want to modify cars, want to indulge their Max Power fantasies. People want to play football. Real football with, you know, Beckham and Henry and Rooney.

It doesn't make a Happy Meal's worth of difference whether these games (PoP, BG&E) play well - who wants to be an arabic prince or a green lipped eco-warrior/journalist when they could be shooting Johnny Foreigner upside the head or recreating all their favorite orc slaying moments from Lord of the Rings.

If Developers and Publishers want to make bucks, they have to start with a premise that everyone can understand, relate to and most importantly want to buy into. That might mean a license - Lord of the Rings, Pop Idol - it might mean a real world activity - modding cars, winning the Premiership - but without that then you may as well not even bother.

So in answer to "what can be done" - if you want your game to sell well, first make people want to play it, then fun to play if you do.

I'll agree to a certain point with that, but I don't believe its the main reason why some great games don't make it into the charts.

I simply don't 'blame' the public for certain games not being successful and accuse them of having 'poor taste'.

Look at the top 25 grossing films of 2003:

1 Finding Nemo

2 The Matrix Reloaded

3 Pirates Of The Caribbean

4 Love Actually

5 Bruce Almighty

6 X-Men 2

7 Calendar Girls

8 Johnny English

9 Terminator 3: Rise Of The Machines

10 The Matrix Revolutions

11 American Pie: The Wedding

12 The Lord Of The Rings: The Return Of The King

13 Catch Me If You Can

14 Two Weeks Notice

15 8 Mile

16 Elf

17 Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle

18 Kill Bill: Volume 1

19 Gangs Of New York

20 The Ring

What do we see there? Animated family films, Love stories, classic literature films, Brit flicks about the Women's Institute, period epics, Japanese horrors, kung fu action films..... a huge mixture of 'mainstream' and 'quirky' films.

Shouldn't they all be footy movies or action crime/war epics?

The majority of them are enjoyable, and certainly worth watching. I'll bet some of the forumite's favourite films of the year are amongst that lot.

So why do the public seem to have reasonable 'taste' when it comes to films, but not videogames? (hey - they've even gone to trouble of spending £100+ on a console to play these videogames)

Because you can see a film for around £5, or buy it on DVD for £15.

Who in their right minds would risk £40 on 'Prince of Persia' when there's 'Need for Speed' or 'FIFA' next to it for the same price? - 'safe, risk free' purchases which have recieved broadly similar scores to POP in magazines (if the public even bother to read game mags - which they don't. But neither, on the whole, do they read 'Empire' or other film mags, so they aren't any more educated about films either)

People shouldn't be so quick to blame a shrewd public.

Oh, and footy and shooting games are actually quite good fun.

EDIT: Harvest and Breaksmith already touched on this whilst I was typing.

[Beertiger]

I'm in the mood today.

What's this all about. I'm saying that you need two things - first a strong premise, second a strong game. In that order.

NFSU could be argued to provide that because it lets you mod cars really well. It does that bit - the point of the game - really well. The driving bit really is secondary to the modding and the modding is brilliant. Sure, it could have been better and if they had tied that to a great driving engine then it would have been better still but you can't deny that the bit that captured folks imagination - the modding - is aces. Yes?

If developers only want to make games based on original and/or surreal premises then fuck 'em, it's their funeral. The idea that creativity and commercial sucess can't sit side by side is rubbish. Admittedly, it requires a trust and understanding that's hard to forge but it's far, far, far from impossible.

The public aren't ignorant, they just know what they like, what they want to do. I think BG&E is fantastic - it really made me smile, deep down inside but why couldn't Ubisoft have taken their original inspiration from something a bit more real, a bit more tangible and then laid their glorious videogame smackdown upon that. The BG&E world is beautiful and occasionally inspired but where's the link to them out there? Where's the nod and a wink to Luke Mainstream and Helen Public?

Nowhere.

So why the fuck and blazes should they want to get involved?

You're correct the modding is what made NFSU what it is and it was very very shrewd of EA to go for the throat with that concept. Even then it was very poorly implemented, the actual mods were good but the method of unlocking was so poor it defied belief.

I do believe the public are ignorant. Take Enter the Matrix, anyone who knows anything knows it's shit. A poor mans Max Payne. However the people who brought it in droves are the kind of people who wouldn't know what they were in for. Take Terminator 3 for example. I've heard that game is worse than ETM but it was still riding high in the charts.

I would have no trouble if they combined the ip with a decent game. Take The Lost World arcade game or in fact any Star Wars arcade game, KOTOR etc etc.

Publishers shoveling shit into the mouths of new gamers who don't know any better based on a license should be shot.

Because you can see a film for around £5, or buy it on DVD for £15.

Who in their right minds would risk £40 on 'Prince of Persia' when there's 'Need for Speed' or 'FIFA' next to it for the same price? - 'safe, risk free' purchases which have recieved broadly similar scores to POP in magazines (if the public even bother to read game mags - which they don't. But neither, on the whole, do they read 'Empire' or other film mags, so they aren't any more educated about films either)

Always the best point. The amount of ace games i've picked up because they were £20 that i wouldn't have bought for £40 is a hell of a lot. I always seem to have more fun with these games as well.

Great games that are even cheaper £15 or even £10 i have even more fun with.

[breaksmith]

Yeah. What our Venice said.

Still, sit the price issue alongside the "I do who with a what?" factor and you have a recipie for thingy. Disaster.

Also, a good number of those films do have an understandable link in them - be it actor or director rather than premise.

And everyone goes to see movies. Not everyone plays games. Not everyone pays their £100 for the privilage of entering the bewildering and expensive world of videogames.

It's not as if unusual premises can't sell games - fat italian plumbers and supersonic hedgehogs leap clichedly to mind - but in the cluttered, badly ordered, almost deliberately confusing layout of your local Game, you can bet your sweet ass, or if you don't have one, my sweet ass that WW2 sounds like a better deal than a lime green lady and a talking pig.

[Liquid Myth]

And everyone goes to see movies. Not everyone plays games. Not everyone pays their £100 for the privilage of entering the bewildering and expensive world of videogames.

Then surely as more people would risk it with a lower price (as stated), even more would take the plunge with a single format?

Sigh. That one's for another day, s'pose.

[Beertiger]

It's not as if unusual premises can't sell games - fat italian plumbers and supersonic hedgehogs leap clichedly to mind - but in the cluttered, badly ordered, almost deliberately confusing layout of your local Game, you can bet your sweet ass, or if you don't have one, my sweet ass that WW2 sounds like a better deal than a lime green lady and a talking pig.

true the average cap wearing joe will go for the nazi fodder. However a game with a talking pig sounds ace, i've heard good things but haven't played. I hope this is cheap then?

I love fucked up games so i'm appalled at myself for not investigating it sooner.

I loved Ape Escape 2 like a mad monkey, which is my point why is it called Ape Escape 2 when it hasn't got any apes in it? Why not Funky Monkey what is Chunky?

[breaksmith]

Then surely as more people would risk it with a lower price (as stated), even more would take the plunge with a single format?

Sigh. That one's for another day, s'pose.

[Ebisumaru]

I just pity the rest of Europe who has to suffer if these titles don't get released on our continent, at least on their prefered format. It would appear that the European market 'suffers' from the conservatism and general stupidity of the British gaming public's choice in games. Anyone have any statistics showing exactly what proportion of videogames are sold in Britain out of the whole of Europe?

[Alex W.]

I'd say that there are tens, of not hundreds of thousands of English-speaking obscure RPG fans in the US. I'd say that there are a fair few less in the EU. Of course, they could take the time to translate it into four new languages and widen the market that way, but it'd still not be nearly as successful as in the US. Their European operation would probably rather spend its time translate FFX-II, FFTA, and other guaranteed hits.

European games buy basically the same things as we do.

[The Liberal Elite]

I do believe the public are ignorant. Take Enter the Matrix, anyone who knows anything knows it's shit. A poor mans Max Payne. However the people who brought it in droves are the kind of people who wouldn't know what they were in for. Take Terminator 3 for example. I've heard that game is worse than ETM but it was still riding high in the charts.

you can't call the public ignorant for buying the matrix when the specialist press basically lied their fucking arses off in print. "yeah, it's really shit, isn't it?" they'd say to each other, but it still managed to get high marks across the board becuase they said waht they thought what the public wanted to hear.

Which brings us to another reason why the public won't take risks - games that they're supposed to get usually end up disappointing them anyway - why should something they never really considered getting be any different?

[Alex W.]

How many members of the general public do you know who read games magazines who aren't going to Primary School?

[The Liberal Elite]

How many members of the general public do you know who read games magazines who aren't going to Primary School?

did none of the ads, or even the box conti quotes from said mags then? even fthey don't buy the mags, they'll be swayed if a 'real' games mag says it's good.

[nohsa]

I blame scores. I was playing bishi bashi Special with a mate last night.

He tried to explain to me that price of Persia is better than Gregory Horror Show because it goy 4/5 in the times and GHS only got 3/5.

And he was meant to go to Oxbridge as well.

It is a bad example but if in that issue they would have reviewed Enter the matrix instead of POP he would have bought that instead.

[scarysheep]

Look at the top 25 grossing films of 2003:

1 Finding Nemo

2 The Matrix Reloaded

3 Pirates Of The Caribbean

4 Love Actually

5 Bruce Almighty

6 X-Men 2

7 Calendar Girls

8 Johnny English

9 Terminator 3: Rise Of The Machines

10 The Matrix Revolutions

11 American Pie: The Wedding

12 The Lord Of The Rings: The Return Of The King

13 Catch Me If You Can

14 Two Weeks Notice

15 8 Mile

16 Elf

17 Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle

18 Kill Bill: Volume 1

19 Gangs Of New York

20 The Ring

What do we see there? Animated family films, Love stories, classic literature films, Brit flicks about the Women's Institute, period epics, Japanese horrors, kung fu action films..... a huge mixture of 'mainstream' and 'quirky' films.

They're all fairly mainstream though, either family films, action flicks or "comedy". It's not like there's Spirited Away or Belleville Rendez-vous or Intacto or Respiro or even Thirteen or Intermission. I'm sure film "buffs" would claim your list to be as mainstream as "gamers" would claim the top 20 games of the year to be mainstream.

And if people buy, say, Enter The Matrix and enjoy it, does that make them stupid? Sure, it's a terrible game if you play a lot of games and have enough knowledge to compare it to other stuff, but if you only buy a couple of games a year and you think that The Matrix is, like, really awesome, dude, then it's £40 well spent if it's enjoyed. Show the sort of person who buys ETM or T3 something like Ikaruga and Viewtiful Joe and they'd probably dismiss it as shit. Horses for courses.

It'll be a shame if PoP isn't released on Gamecube and Xbox over here. But it'd also be understandable. No point releasing something that not enough people want, even if it is fucking ace. Sad, but true.

[Space Renegade Ulala]

I just pity the rest of Europe who has to suffer if these titles don't get released on our continent, at least on their prefered format. It would appear that the European market 'suffers' from the conservatism and general stupidity of the British gaming public's choice in games. Anyone have any statistics showing exactly what proportion of videogames are sold in Britain out of the whole of Europe?

Purely guessing but presumably BG&E has done little better in France, Holland et al than here. I doubt they'd write a game off elsewhere purely because of it's UK retail performance.

Harvest's point about GTA3 was good - that was pure word of mouth, if fact the game just seemed to appear out of nowhere and take everyone by surprise. The only (big) difference was that it was the 3rd game in a reasonably established franchise, though, which probably helped the intial take up. Then again, PoP isn't exactly unheard of either...

[Ed-E]

I hate to resurrect old ghosts but if Ubi's games hadn't been so well-discounted this Christmas then I wouldn't have ended up with POP, BG&E and XIII lying around here.

I still bought In Memoriam at £30, though, even though it was an outrageous price. Coz, you know, it deserved it.

[Sprite Machine]

I do believe the public are ignorant. Take Enter the Matrix, anyone who knows anything knows it's shit. A poor mans Max Payne. However the people who brought it in droves are the kind of people who wouldn't know what they were in for. Take Terminator 3 for example. I've heard that game is worse than ETM but it was still riding high in the charts.

No, people who bought Enter the Matrix are not ignorant. People who bought Enter the Matrix presumably wanted an interactive version of The Matrix, with all the likenesses and voices and fighting moves intact.... which is exactly what they got.

Likewise with T3. If you can think of a better game that features the voice and likeness of Arnold Schwartzenegger and lets you have punch ups with a Kristanna Loken computer model, then please, show people the way! Because not everyone is a critic - surprisingly.

[Alex W.]

did none of the ads, or even the box conti quotes from said mags then? even fthey don't buy the mags, they'll be swayed if a 'real' games mag says it's good.

That's my point, they don't read the mags that criticise it and only get their info from the box blurbs.

[The Liberal Elite]

That's my point, they don't read the mags that criticise it and only get their info from the box blurbs.

AND WHO WROTE THE BLURBS?

[breaksmith]

The box blurb writers. Mag writers just do quotes and no fucker reads them.