The Trouble with Nintendo. A TL;DR topic.

[ras el hanout]

Depends on wether they think putting their catalogue on other consoles would yield them more profit than having to spend money developing, marketing, manufacturing and supporting their own hardware and software ecosystem. Not as cut and dry as you think.

It's pretty cut and dry. Nobody makes money from videogames apart from Nintendo and a few Indies. Sony have not made a penny from computer games. MS have lost a load. EA seem to be constantly losing money. Nintendo have made billions and billions.

Yeah, the WiiU's been a fucking total disaster but they'll probably just come up with something incredible next time. That's what they do.

[squirtle]

Problem is the costs really - they could probably get a Wii U into a phone form factor now but its much cheaper to 'box' these things. PS4 and Xbone could also be significantly smaller but fabricating these things adds a huge impact to the bottom line.

Like I said, we're a couple of years away, but my phone, a Galaxy S3 outputs at 720p with a quad core processor and that's over a year old now. Strip out all the extraneous phone gubbins, go back to a single screen package maybe... I don't know. £250 for a machine that is just as good at home or on the go that plays stuff like Super Mario World 3D etc etc...

[Venice Cull]

Like I said, we're a couple of years away, but my phone, a Galaxy S3 outputs at 720p with a quad core processor and that's over a year old now. Strip out all the extraneous phone gubbins, go back to a single screen package maybe... I don't know. £250 for a machine that is just as good at home or on the go that plays stuff like Super Mario World 3D etc etc...

Ignoring the fact it would still be more expensive to put all that in a small form factor (when compared to it just being in a console box). Are you suggesting they abandon the Wii U 'console' and pack all the gubbins into a single handheld?

Where does the 2/3DS come into this? Is this Wii-U handheld going to replace it?

Or, are you suggesting the NEXT console Nintendo put out is the Wii-U in handheld form? (to compete against the Xtwo and PS5).

[squirtle]

Ignoring the fact it would still be more expensive to put all that in a small form factor (when compared to it just being in a console box). Are you suggesting they abandon the Wii U 'console' and pack all the gubbins into a single handheld?

Where does the 2/3DS come into this? Is this Wii-U handheld going to replace it?

Or, are you suggesting the NEXT console Nintendo put out is the Wii-U in handheld form? (to compete against the Xtwo and PS5).

In all honesty, I don't know.

I think the Wii U has tanked. I don't think any game or series of games is going to save it in any meaningful way. It's pretty clear now that all the big sellers from the Wii (Mario Kart, NSMB Wii etc) were big sellers because every fucker had already bought a Wii for Wii Sports and fancied some new games for it and "oh, look, it comes with a fun steering wheel!" If Nintendo are lucky, the Wii U will sell as much as the Dreamcast. But at this point, I wouldn't like to make that bet.

So they've got to do something. They already have the gaming on a separate screen thing going on. They've already made the 2DS, which we now know is just one screen separated by some plastic across the middle. So I don't know... The WiiDS? Unless in two years, Nintendo release a new console on par with the One and PS4 (and that didn't work with the Cube), then their going to have do something out of left field again like they did with the Wii.

(as an aside, how much do mobiles cost to make? What's their bill of components? I know they sell for £400-£500 (Google handsets not included) approx when they first come out, but if you were to strip out the phone shit from them and put controls on either side of the screen, and like I said, considering my phone is a quad core 720p machine which is over a year old, would that not be feasible?)

[Venice Cull]

(as an aside, how much do mobiles cost to make? What's their bill of components? I know they sell for £400-£500 (Google handsets not included) approx when they first come out, but if you were to strip out the phone shit from them and put controls on either side of the screen, and like I said, considering my phone is a quad core 720p machine which is over a year old, would that not be feasible?)

Yeah - it's totally possible - but they'd have to use a completely different hardware architecture (Android phone tech) to benefit from the economies of scale (for example, one firm has put an Android console on a memory stick, although it can't really play newer power-hungry games), but I think that's quite different to scaling down Wii-U hardware to fit in the hand - regardless of wether that is now or in the future.

[tommygun]

They should give it 3/4 yrs until the end of the 3DS and then replace both machines with the 'WiiU in a handheld'. This will give them an instant library to start off with and with the 3rd party handheld support they would hopefully keep, Nintendo themselves can go all out on one machine.

[utopastac]

I think that'll be the plan, but more like 2 years than 3/4.

I'd like them to do that really and then have an incremental upgrade system in place like mobile phones so the hardware cycle is much shorter. Where the OS is relatively stable and games are backwards / forward compatible. And all games that are released work on older hardware revisions, but perhaps at a lower resolution and with certain effects changed like the PC space.

[RubberJohnny]

Have they actually increased their development teams at all over the last few years? I mean, there's no point launching another device in a few years if they're just going to run into the same software droughts that tank sales with that too.

[ras el hanout]

Have they actually increased their development teams at all over the last few years? I mean, there's no point launching another device in a few years if they're just going to run into the same software droughts that tank sales with that too.

They got enough developers for one machine, just not two it seems.

[tommygun]

Well we've had FE, Mario 3d, Zelda & Mario Kart on 3DS and now we're getting the same on Wii U. If they had one system it may actually free them up a bit.

[squirtle]

Have they actually increased their development teams at all over the last few years? I mean, there's no point launching another device in a few years if they're just going to run into the same software droughts that tank sales with that too.

They got enough developers for one machine, just not two it seems.

Indeed this. With the size of teams needed for modern games, it seems they don't have enough teams to support two separate systems.

[RubberJohnny]

Yeah, but it's weird to see the Nintendo fans say "they should make fewer game than in the past" than "they should scale up their team sizes so they can make the same number of games they always have at this level".

[squirtle]

Yeah, but it's weird to see the Nintendo fans say "they should make fewer game than in the past" than "they should scale up their team sizes so they can make the same number of games they always have at this level".

It's not a case of fewer games, just more games to a single platform. If you had one platform out right now that had the combined library of the 3DS and the Wii U, that would be some incredible library of games, right there.

[RubberJohnny]

But it isn't more games to a single platform - as everyone is saying, the issue is they didn't scale their teams up to support two platforms at GC or higher, the DS guys were still at the sort of team sizes for N64. If they're not expanding, then they're merging teams.

Instead of two platforms with poor support, which we have today, you get one with better, but that's still a step down than older generations where they had good support for both.

People seem to be remarkably accepting that Nintendo are shrinking.

[ras el hanout]

But it isn't more games to a single platform - as everyone is saying, the issue is they didn't scale their teams up to support two platforms at GC or higher, the DS guys were still at the sort of team sizes for N64. If they're not expanding, then they're merging teams.

Instead of two platforms with poor support, which we have today, you get one with better, but that's still a step down than older generations where they had good support for both.

Eh? We don't have two machines with poor support. We have one with great support and one with okay support. Mix those two together and according to my calculator you get mega-stonking awesome support!

[ryodi]

Nintendo combing home and portable means they are also merging two revenue streams so if disaster comes they have nothing to fall back on.

[mdn2]

But it isn't more games to a single platform - as everyone is saying, the issue is they didn't scale their teams up to support two platforms at GC or higher, the DS guys were still at the sort of team sizes for N64. If they're not expanding, then they're merging teams.

Instead of two platforms with poor support, which we have today, you get one with better, but that's still a step down than older generations where they had good support for both.

Nintendos support on the 3DS has been nothing short of stellar this year. Off the top of my head, we've had Fire Emblem, Pokemon, Zelda, Luigis Mansion 2, Animal Crossing and Donkey Kong. That's a hell of a line up and the 3DS sales have benefited from them.

What others are saying is, if we'd have had those plus Mario 3D World and Pikmin 3 on just one console, then that would have been an impressive gaming year for it.

[Red Alignment]

The problem Nintendo have is the average consumer has no idea what a Wii U is. They think it's a new screen for their Wii, which they packed into the attic years ago.

It woulnd't surprise me if Nintendo finally announce they are pulling out of livingroom hardware and just publish the 'big' games on other platforms.

1. Every Wii U owner will tell you that's overwhelmingly the common belief amongst the general public. ("Oh, you got that tablet thing for your Wii?") Although, they tend to find the machine to be very entertaining once you've actually shown the Wii U to them and how it's different - ironically, more so than us jaded gamer types.

2. No they shouldn't, for their sakes. But then Nintendo would literally rather end up selling their own games exclusively on a Pokémon Mini style device that they manufacturer themselves than switch to being a developer for either the Xbone or PS4. And it'd make them more profit, most likely.

[squirtle]

But it isn't more games to a single platform - as everyone is saying, the issue is they didn't scale their teams up to support two platforms at GC or higher, the DS guys were still at the sort of team sizes for N64. If they're not expanding, then they're merging teams.

Instead of two platforms with poor support, which we have today, you get one with better, but that's still a step down than older generations where they had good support for both.

Hang on, you of all people should see the reason for that. THE RISING COST OF GAME DEVELOPMENT.

Back then, GB games and the like could be knocked up over a weekend with a couple of people in a garage (joke) and the teams needed for even the bigger Cube games were nowhere near as big as they are now.

3DS and WIi U games need more people to make them. They have scaled up, but will still need to scale up massively if they want to support two technologically advanced platforms going forwards. It's not like Microsoft do that, and Sony have had to hack in remote play on their handheld to try and drive decent sales for it so I'd be surprised if we see another handheld from them if the PS4 is a success.

Also, if they have a single platform that is both a home console and can be used on the go, then all the games made for the 3DS and the Wii U would have theoritcally been on one platform, giving a much wider base of software.

[RubberJohnny]

Eh? We don't have two machines with poor support. We have one with great support and one with okay support. Mix those two together and according to my calculator you get mega-stonking awesome support!

Nintendos support on the 3DS has been nothing short of stellar this year. Off the top of my head, we've had Fire Emblem, Pokemon, Zelda, Luigis Mansion 2, Animal Crossing and Donkey Kong. That's a hell of a line up and the 3DS sales have benefited from them.

Ok, fine, poor wording. But neither of you is disagreeing that this is a step down from past generations where they were able to support both platforms well.

Are people really happy for that long term decline, or is it just the best they can hope for?

Hang on, you of all people should see the reason for that. THE RISING COST OF GAME DEVELOPMENT.

Back then, GB games and the like could be knocked up over a weekend with a couple of people in a garage (joke) and the teams needed for even the bigger Cube games were nowhere near as big as they are now.

Well, duh.

I was just surprised that people who love Nintendo games were so happy about seeing fewer of them.

[ras el hanout]

Ok, fine, poor wording. But neither of you is disagreeing that this is a step down from past generations where they were able to support both platforms well.

Are people really happy for that long term decline, or is it just the best they can hope for?

I don't really remember Nintendo's home consoles since the n64 being lauded for their first party support. I think you've made that up.

And nobody's talking about decline, as has been said and you've ignored, Nintendo have published a terrific amount of terrific games in the last two years. Unfortunately for the WiiU most of them were on the 3ds.

MarioKart 7, Luigi's Mansion, Fire Emblem, Animal Crossing, Zelda and many more - I'd have bought the shit out of versions of those with a lick of paint on them.

Nintendo just need to make a tool where they put whatever games they've made. Windwaker or Luigi's Mansion, and then they press a button and it turns it into either a WiiU or a 3DS version. like Monster Hunter.

[RubberJohnny]

Yeah, but we've already said, a short term boost is still a decline compared to the past when they could support two platforms.

If you're saying "yeah, it'll be this plus this - great!" then you're basically arguing for the reduction. Not that there's anything wrong with that, I just found it interesting that even the Nintendo die-hards were acknowledging they were in decline.

[mdn2]

Ok, fine, poor wording. But neither of you is disagreeing that this is a step down from past generations where they were able to support both platforms well.

Are people really happy for that long term decline, or is it just the best they can hope for?

Personally I would rather see Nintendo achieve some degree of success with one console/handheld than fail spectacularly because they can't cope with two. And to see them go multiplatform and possibly end up like Sega would be bad news for gaming all round.

If you're saying "yeah, it'll be this plus this - great!" then you're basically arguing for the reduction. Not that there's anything wrong with that, I just found it interesting that even the Nintendo die-hards were acknowledging they were in decline.

They are in decline - no one is denying that.

[squirtle]

Ok, fine, poor wording. But neither of you is disagreeing that this is a step down from past generations where they were able to support both platforms well.

Are people really happy for that long term decline, or is it just the best they can hope for?

Well, duh.

I was just surprised that people who love Nintendo games were so happy about seeing fewer of them.

Why would there be fewer of them? If the 3DS library was available in the e-shop on the Wii U and the disk based stuff was still available for it, why is that fewer games?

From a consumer point of view, I only have to buy one machine to access 20 games, rather than buying 1 machine to access 15 and another machine to access 5.

Yeah, but we've already said, a short term boost is still a decline compared to the past when they could support two platforms.

If you're saying "yeah, it'll be this plus this - great!" then you're basically arguing for the reduction. Not that there's anything wrong with that, I just found it interesting that even the Nintendo die-hards were acknowledging they were in decline.

It's a reduction in number of consoles. Not games. That is a good thing.

[ras el hanout]

Yeah, but we've already said, a short term boost is still a decline compared to the past when they could support two platforms.

If you're saying "yeah, it'll be this plus this - great!" then you're basically arguing for the reduction. Not that there's anything wrong with that, I just found it interesting that even the Nintendo die-hards were acknowledging they were in decline.

I don't even know what you're on about. Don't know the figures but I reckon Nintendo have made as many games this year as they did in 2009 or any year.

Where before DS games looked a bit shit to me and didn't appeal now I want to play Animal Crossing on the WiiU. I mean, pretty much as is. Yeah give the graphics a boost but that's the game I want to play. I guess now that 3DS games are more proper games, and less handheld versions there's now a problem that wasn't there before.

[RubberJohnny]

They are in decline - no one is denying that.

Well people get very defensive and deny that the Wii U was in any trouble, until occasionally you see people like scottcr come out with the exact points they were arguing against, a few months later when they can no longer keep up the pretence.

Why would there be fewer of them? If the 3DS library was available in the e-shop on the Wii U and the disk based stuff was still available for it, why is that fewer games?

Read the post again, specifically the "step down from previous generations where they could fully support two platforms" bit. Fully supporting one platform instead of two is a decline.

[utopastac]

Yeah, but we've already said, a short term boost is still a decline compared to the past when they could support two platforms.

If you're saying "yeah, it'll be this plus this - great!" then you're basically arguing for the reduction. Not that there's anything wrong with that, I just found it interesting that even the Nintendo die-hards were acknowledging they were in decline.

You've got to stop putting words in people's mouths.

[Mr Cochese]

I don't really remember Nintendo's home consoles since the n64 being lauded for their first party support. I think you've made that up.

And nobody's talking about decline, as has been said and you've ignored, Nintendo have published a terrific amount of terrific games in the last two years. Unfortunately for the WiiU most of them were on the 3ds.

MarioKart 7, Luigi's Mansion, Fire Emblem, Animal Crossing, Zelda and many more - I'd have bought the shit out of versions of those with a lick of paint on them.

Nintendo just need to make a tool where they put whatever games they've made. Windwaker or Luigi's Mansion, and then they press a button and it turns it into either a WiiU or a 3DS version. like Monster Hunter.

They should make everything in Unity 3D and just change the target platform dropdown to whatever.

[mdn2]

Well people get very defensive and deny that the Wii U was in any trouble, until occaisionally you see people like scottcr come out with the exact points they were arguing against.

Pretty much everyone on here knows the WiiU is in trouble. Pretty much everyone who has got one is happy with the machine but knows its not succeeding commercially. I've not seen many posts recently where others are denying it's in trouble?

[squirtle]

Well people get very defensive and deny that the Wii U was in any trouble, until occasionally you see people like scottcr come out with the exact points they were arguing against, a few months later when they can no longer keep up the pretence.

Read the post again, specifically the "step down from previous generations where they could fully support two platforms" bit. Fully supporting one platform instead of two is a decline.

Again, a decline in the number of platforms, yes. A decline in the number of games, no. And what is the most important one of those two things to us?

Also, from Nintendo's point of view, no separate R+D for two consoles, no having to split teams for two platforms. Just one platform. All teams making games for it from the big epics like Zelda, to smaller e-shop stuff. Why would that not be a good thing?

Stop getting hung up on the fact that for some reason, to you, one platform is worse than two platforms.