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Dota 2 Reborn. Source 2 is here!


Moz
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I'll get in on it as well, I played through half the tutorials the other day and thought it was ok, I'm definitely interested to play more to see what the fuss is about

Forgot to include my steam name, it's dannons
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Ok, so I've got up to the bot matches part of the tutorial, and lo and behold my team won the first match, so I must've absorbed something during the first few missions. Still, it's probably given me more questions than answers:

1) Is there a protocol for deciding who goes where? I was a Sniper in my bot match and the other bots merrily went top and bottom, so I went and solo'd middle. If I was playing with humans how would I know where to go other than asking and probably getting told "FFS UNINSTALL DOTA2 AND KILL URSELF"?

2) Is there a typical level / time into the game when you stop grinding creeps for XP and start pushing?

3) Is it pretty random who calls to push in a given place, or is it only certain types of hero that have the responsibility for calling it?

4) And having asked that, when there is a push are you all meant to gather up and push against the towers or is it usually less than that?

That'll do for now I think :)

Edit: I've just noticed that the DotA2 client has appeared in my Steam list for Mac, so might be worth other Mac people checking if they have it too.

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Ok, so I've got up to the bot matches part of the tutorial, and lo and behold my team won the first match, so I must've absorbed something during the first few missions. Still, it's probably given me more questions than answers:

1) Is there a protocol for deciding who goes where? I was a Sniper in my bot match and the other bots merrily went top and bottom, so I went and solo'd middle. If I was playing with humans how would I know where to go other than asking and probably getting told "FFS UNINSTALL DOTA2 AND KILL URSELF"?

2) Is there a typical level / time into the game when you stop grinding creeps for XP and start pushing?

3) Is it pretty random who calls to push in a given place, or is it only certain types of hero that have the responsibility for calling it?

4) And having asked that, when there is a push are you all meant to gather up and push against the towers or is it usually less than that?

That'll do for now I think :)

Edit: I've just noticed that the DotA2 client has appeared in my Steam list for Mac, so might be worth other Mac people checking if they have it too.

1) There are certain lanes that specific heroes do best in. Some heroes can do very well with levels and a little bit of farm, so the mid lane (or certain solo side-lane match-ups) is best for them. Some heroes are comparatively weak if alone early on, and thus need a bit of a babysitter. Or you might have heroes that work particularly well in tandem and can get kills in lane early on - you'll want them together. There are also heroes that can thrive in a 1 versus 2 or even 1 versus 3 situation - they'll do well in a solo lane and then the team can have a jungler or a trilane or even in rare circumstances a dual mid lane. It's very fluid and you don't need to worry too much about it at low levels of play. Sniper is a common mid hero even though he has some serious weaknesses in that role - no real mobility or way to control the rune spawns, for instance, and fast levels don't benefit him that much - but as you get into higher levels of play you'll see him played as a safe lane carry rather than a mid (safe lane is bottom for Radiant, top for Dire). It tends to be the hard lane that's soloed - top for Radiant, bottom for Dire. Trilanes are basically irrelevant at low levels of play - they're extremely common in pro games and pretty common the higher up the skill rankings you go, but don't worry too much about them. The general idea of them is a defensive trilane (in your safe lane) to create room for a carry to farm - anyone against a defensive trilane lives in constant fear of ganks from the jungle and the trilane can control the creep waves easily. More rarely you'll face an offensive trilane - a bunch of heroes geared to getting lots of early kills against the enemy's safe lane carry. Usually multiple stuns or slows and nukes, that kind of thing. This is more detail than you need, really, but I'm covering all the bases. :P

Short version is: if you're a hard carry (a hero that needs lots of farm to be effective), you want the safe lane and a support. If you're a hero that can do well with a fast level 6 (and usually a ranged hero) or maybe have some mobility stuff like blink abilities, mid will serve you well. If you're relatively resilient, hard lane will work. And you almost never want to have a double melee lane - more than 2 melee heroes on a team could mean bad things, unless the 3rd melee hero is going mid. 2 melee heroes against a lane that has 1 ranged hero in it is inviting a lot of harass that the melee heroes can't really return.

2) It varies. Some heroes - like Chen with his army of dominated neutral creeps - excel at early pushing. Other heroes - the carries, basically - should spend most of the game farming until they reach a tipping point of having lots of big items and they can come and End the Fun.

3) It's not types of hero that call pushes. It can be anyone, and usually the team has to decide on when and where to push. Certain heroes and setups (such as a hard lane Dark Seer) might aim to push down the enemy's tower as quick as they can because of their abilities lending themselves to that, but when it comes to team-wide pushes it needs organisation and seeing an opening. You generally don't want to push against the entire enemy team of 5 unless you're confident that you can beat them in a fight under their own tower, which usually requires a decent lead.

4) Covered that above, really. A push can be any number of heroes and it's dependent on the opposition you're likely to face.

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I think I'd like to have a go at this too, so my Steam name is the_inept.

Played through some of the tutorials and the single-lane tower capture thingy. Died quite a bit mainly because I am not juggling everything. One thing I try not to do is just head for the action and spam, instead I'll hang back and attempt to use special abilities and items, although I keep forgetting - "oh damn, I can use that healing salve- too late".

I can certainly see why people like it, there's some xomplexity to it and I can imagine when things get really hectic you need to be totally on the ball.

Does it help to 'learn' the shop? I know there are stacks of items but if you can zero in on what you want really fast it does help, am I right? When it opens up and you're presented with this ton of stuff it is bewildering and you don't have time to go "hmm, Bracers".

At this stage I'm still pottering about and seeing what's what, but if enough people here are having a go too I think between us we can get some decent games going in the future - you won't catch me jumping in with randoms, not for some considerable time at least.

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Ok, so I've got up to the bot matches part of the tutorial, and lo and behold my team won the first match, so I must've absorbed something during the first few missions. Still, it's probably given me more questions than answers:

1) Is there a protocol for deciding who goes where? I was a Sniper in my bot match and the other bots merrily went top and bottom, so I went and solo'd middle. If I was playing with humans how would I know where to go other than asking and probably getting told "FFS UNINSTALL DOTA2 AND KILL URSELF"?

2) Is there a typical level / time into the game when you stop grinding creeps for XP and start pushing?

3) Is it pretty random who calls to push in a given place, or is it only certain types of hero that have the responsibility for calling it?

4) And having asked that, when there is a push are you all meant to gather up and push against the towers or is it usually less than that?

That'll do for now I think :)

Edit: I've just noticed that the DotA2 client has appeared in my Steam list for Mac, so might be worth other Mac people checking if they have it too.

1) Certain heroes are better in middle than others, but don't worry about it initially. Sniper is actually one of the strongest characters in mid, so you made the right choice there!

2) Many characters will leave their lane and start to try and get kills when they hit level 6. Level 6 is where you get the first level of your ultimate skill. If you notice the person you're playing against has disappeared, help your team out by typing "missing" or going to the chat wheel and picking "missing". It will let them know that someone might be heading their way and could save their skin.

3) Aggressive players will normally try to rally the team together to push, perhaps carelessly. Getting your whole team together to take down towers or gang up on enemies is how you get things done, and certain characters are better at attacking towers than others, but you don't have to listen to every command you're given. No hero has more "right" to issue commands than another.

4) That's exactly what a push is. When someone says "let's push bottom" (hurhur) for example, that means everyone runs along the bottom lane in a group with the aim of taking out a tower or an enemy hero. Late in the game when all the towers are gone, "push" normally refers to attacking the enemy base. "We need to defend, they're about to push" etc.

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1) There are certain lanes that specific heroes do best in. Some heroes can do very well with levels and a little bit of farm, so the mid lane (or certain solo side-lane match-ups) is best for them. Some heroes are comparatively weak if alone early on, and thus need a bit of a babysitter. Or you might have heroes that work particularly well in tandem and can get kills in lane early on - you'll want them together. There are also heroes that can thrive in a 1 versus 2 or even 1 versus 3 situation - they'll do well in a solo lane and then the team can have a jungler or a trilane or even in rare circumstances a dual mid lane. It's very fluid and you don't need to worry too much about it at low levels of play. Sniper is a common mid hero even though he has some serious weaknesses in that role - no real mobility or way to control the rune spawns, for instance, and fast levels don't benefit him that much - but as you get into higher levels of play you'll see him played as a safe lane carry rather than a mid (safe lane is bottom for Radiant, top for Dire). It tends to be the hard lane that's soloed - top for Radiant, bottom for Dire. Trilanes are basically irrelevant at low levels of play - they're extremely common in pro games and pretty common the higher up the skill rankings you go, but don't worry too much about them. The general idea of them is a defensive trilane (in your safe lane) to create room for a carry to farm - anyone against a defensive trilane lives in constant fear of ganks from the jungle and the trilane can control the creep waves easily. More rarely you'll face an offensive trilane - a bunch of heroes geared to getting lots of early kills against the enemy's safe lane carry. Usually multiple stuns or slows and nukes, that kind of thing. This is more detail than you need, really, but I'm covering all the bases. :P

Short version is: if you're a hard carry (a hero that needs lots of farm to be effective), you want the safe lane and a support. If you're a hero that can do well with a fast level 6 (and usually a ranged hero) or maybe have some mobility stuff like blink abilities, mid will serve you well. If you're relatively resilient, hard lane will work. And you almost never want to have a double melee lane - more than 2 melee heroes on a team could mean bad things, unless the 3rd melee hero is going mid. 2 melee heroes against a lane that has 1 ranged hero in it is inviting a lot of harass that the melee heroes can't really return.

This is all great advice from Rudi, and don't worry if you don't understand all the terms he's using yet. Ask him or myself if you want a specific word or term explaining.

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Does it help to 'learn' the shop? I know there are stacks of items but if you can zero in on what you want really fast it does help, am I right? When it opens up and you're presented with this ton of stuff it is bewildering and you don't have time to go "hmm, Bracers".

You'll learn the shop and items pretty much organically. I still rely heavily on the suggested items tab, and occasionally searching for specific item names - I almost never tab through the different sections of the shop window. Learn what stuff is sold in the side shop and secret shop (both kinds have a different selection - the side shop sells some secret shop items and some main shop items) and learn how to assemble commonly built items. You can't go too far wrong with a magic wand for every hero, for instance, as a beginner tactic. I still build wand on probably 80% of heroes, and it's situationally useful on all of them.

Some basic guidelines: get phase boots on someone who can benefit from extra damage and bursts of speed for chasing enemies; get arcane boots on heroes that use their abilities heavily and need both extra mana pool and regular recharges of mana; get power treads to bulk up your hero and to increase attack speed; get boots of travel late-game as a replacement for things like arcane boots if you want to remove reliance on teleport scrolls. Which reminds me: get into the habit of always carrying a teleport scroll! Can get you out of trouble, back to base or back to lane quickly, or get you to the aid of a tower/teammate who needs it. All manner of uses. Try to start the game with some stat items and regen items like the salves and tangos and clarities - very very rarely any major items, and basically never boots to start with. Yes I know you buy boots at the start of a game in League of Legends. Don't do it here. A steady build-up is almost always better than setting your sights on the big expensive items you want and saving up for them from the very beginning, so that you stay competitive throughout the game.

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In fact, here are some recommended core item builds for the limited hero pool heroes:

Bounty Hunter: Magic Wand, Phase Boots, Urn of Shadows/Medallion of Courage/save up for a bigger item like Desolator.

Death Prophet: Bottle, Arcane Boots, Perseverance (to become a Bloodstone later).

Dragon Knight: Magic Wand, Power Treads, Bracer, (Vanguard), Black King Bar.

Drow Ranger: Power Treads, Wraith Band, Yasha, Crystalys.

Juggernaut: Magic Wand, Phase Boots, Poor Man's Shield, Yasha.

Lich: Magic Wand, Boots of Speed (Lich doesn't even particularly need upgraded boots early on; Tranquil Boots can be good), Mekansm, Bracer.

Lion: Magic Wand/Bottle (depending on whether you're in sidelanes or mid), Tranquil Boots (he's heavy on mana use but can use his Mana Drain to get it and doesn't need Arcane Boots), Bracer, Aghanim's Scepter.

Omniknight: Magic Wand, Arcane Boots, Soul Ring, Mekansm.

Razor: Magic Wand/Bottle, Power Treads/Phase Boots, Yasha.

Sand King: Magic Wand, Arcane Boots, Blink Dagger.

Skeleton King: Magic Wand, Power Treads, Armlet of Mordiggian, Black King Bar.

Sniper: Power Treads, Wraith Band, Mask of Madness/Maelstrom (Maelstrom can become Mjollnir later - one of my favourite gimmick builds is Lightning King Sniper who just stacks Mjollnirs).

Sven: Magic Wand, Power Treads, (Urn of Shadows), Armlet of Mordiggian, Black King Bar.

Tidehunter: Magic Wand, Arcane Boots, Blink Dagger.

Vengeful Spirit: Magic Wand, Boots of Speed (either Phase Boots or Arcane Boots to upgrade, or just leave them as naked boots, dealer's choice), Force Staff

Viper: Power Treads, Wraith Band, Yasha.

Warlock: Magic Wand, Arcane Boots, Aghanim's Scepter, Refresher Orb (this last one is something to aim high for but it's hilarious for Warlock, letting you drop four golems on the enemy once you have it)

Windrunner: Magic Wand, Phase Boots/Arcane Boots, Force Staff, Crystalys/Mekansm (depending on whether you're going carry or support)

i'm done.

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To access the list of templates for your current character, tick the book icon in the top left, then click the arrow next to where it says "Valve". From here you can see a list of the top rated templates. Click on one and it will advise you what to buy and which skills to pick as you play.

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Up until now I haven't had much luck with melee heroes, but I've been doing alright against bots with Skeleton King. Once he's levelled up and got some decent items he's pretty powerful, and has the rather handy ability to resurrect himself. :)

EDIT: Yeah, the templates are brilliant. I'd be lost without them at the moment, and they really make things so much less daunting.

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Up until now I haven't had much luck with melee heroes, but I've been doing alright against bots with Skeleton King. Once he's levelled up and got some decent items he's pretty powerful, and has the rather handy ability to resurrect himself. :)

I had to stop myself from recommending Refresher Orb for Skeleton King too. It's amazing for him though. Essentially gives him a third life on top of the two he's got already.

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Steamdb is reporting that the mac/linux versions are now available?

Edit, yep. The official twitter account has confirmed the Mac and linux clients are rolling out!

Also, Dota 2 broke 4m users this week.

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Ok, now that I know about those template things (thanks people above) this is going much better, even got a bunch of kills. Sniper is my preferred class at the moment as I don't really know what to do when I'm about to die and that seems to happen a lot to me as a melee class. Still working through the bot matches, I'm 3-0 at the moment but I'm having almost a physical recoiling reaction to even thinking about playing with others. Compared to earlier on today I'm enjoying this much more now simply because I'm being told what to buy. In the first few tutorials I was just buying healing potions all the time to try and keep my health up :facepalm:

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Yeah, if you buy the right items you'll find you have to rely on potions much less as games progress.

As for when you're about to die, I generally just leg it. :lol: One thing I've learnt though is that you generally shouldn't take too many risks. It can be tempting to chase down enemy heroes if you've almost killed them, but it's probably not worth it if you have to run past a tower in the early game, or possibly into a bunch of his mates! Simply forcing them to retreat is a win, as they'll miss out on experience and opportunities to harass you while they do.

That's me pretending to know something about Dota there. :P

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In fact, here are some recommended core item builds for the limited hero pool heroes:

Good write-up! The optional Vanguard on Dragon Knight is the only thing I'd disagree with - in Dota 2 Dragon Knight counts as a ranged hero when in Elder Dragon Form, so he gets the weaker damage block. Vanguard's damage block happens before any damage reduction from armour, so with the extra armour from his Dragon Blood passive he outgrows the item especially quickly.

One for the Dark Souls fans:

tumblr_mq54l0Gzyf1sx6pl1o1_500.jpg

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Good write-up! The optional Vanguard on Dragon Knight is the only thing I'd disagree with - in Dota 2 Dragon Knight counts as a ranged hero when in Elder Dragon Form, so he gets the weaker damage block. Vanguard's damage block happens before any damage reduction from armour, so with the extra armour from his Dragon Blood passive he outgrows the item especially quickly.

Yeah to be honest I was reaching for Dragon Knight because I hate him and never play him. :P

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1) There are certain lanes that specific heroes do best in. Some heroes can do very well with levels and a little bit of farm, so the mid lane (or certain solo side-lane match-ups) is best for them. Some heroes are comparatively weak if alone early on, and thus need a bit of a babysitter. Or you might have heroes that work particularly well in tandem and can get kills in lane early on - you'll want them together. There are also heroes that can thrive in a 1 versus 2 or even 1 versus 3 situation - they'll do well in a solo lane and then the team can have a jungler or a trilane (Paul: As in 3 heroes in one lane?) or even in rare circumstances a dual mid lane. It's very fluid and you don't need to worry too much about it at low levels of play. Sniper is a common mid hero even though he has some serious weaknesses in that role - no real mobility or way to control the rune spawns (I've heard of these runes but have no clue what they are, what they are for, anything... anyone fancy explaining them quickly?), for instance, and fast levels don't benefit him that much - but as you get into higher levels of play you'll see him played as a safe lane carry rather than a mid (safe lane is bottom for Radiant, top for Dire) What makes those lanes safe/hard? Something about the enemy creeps?. It tends to be the hard lane that's soloed - top for Radiant, bottom for Dire. Trilanes are basically irrelevant at low levels of play - they're extremely common in pro games and pretty common the higher up the skill rankings you go, but don't worry too much about them. The general idea of them is a defensive trilane (in your safe lane) to create room for a carry to farm - anyone against a defensive trilane lives in constant fear of ganks from the jungle and the trilane can control the creep waves easily. More rarely you'll face an offensive trilane - a bunch of heroes geared to getting lots of early kills against the enemy's safe lane carry. Usually multiple stuns or slows and nukes, that kind of thing. This is more detail than you need, really, but I'm covering all the bases. :P

Short version is: if you're a hard carry (a hero that needs lots of farm to be effective), you want the safe lane and a support. If you're a hero that can do well with a fast level 6 (and usually a ranged hero) or maybe have some mobility stuff like blink abilities, mid will serve you well. If you're relatively resilient, hard lane will work. And you almost never want to have a double melee lane - more than 2 melee heroes on a team could mean bad things, unless the 3rd melee hero is going mid. 2 melee heroes against a lane that has 1 ranged hero in it is inviting a lot of harass that the melee heroes can't really return.

2) It varies. Some heroes - like Chen with his army of dominated neutral creeps - excel at early pushing. Other heroes - the carries, basically - should spend most of the game farming until they reach a tipping point of having lots of big items and they can come and End the Fun.

3) It's not types of hero that call pushes. It can be anyone, and usually the team has to decide on when and where to push. Certain heroes and setups (such as a hard lane Dark Seer) might aim to push down the enemy's tower as quick as they can because of their abilities lending themselves to that, but when it comes to team-wide pushes it needs organisation and seeing an opening. You generally don't want to push against the entire enemy team of 5 unless you're confident that you can beat them in a fight under their own tower, which usually requires a decent lead.

4) Covered that above, really. A push can be any number of heroes and it's dependent on the opposition you're likely to face.

Thanks to Moz and Rudi :) I've put some funny coloured text in the quote above for stuff I don't understand if someone wouldn't mind elaborating a bit. I know it doesn't matter yet, but I think I'd enjoy casts etc. of this more if I understood a bit more about the game.

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A trilane is as it sounds, a lane with three heroes in it. Usually all three heroes won't be in the lane hanging around the creeps - the supports might jungle a little or stack and pull jungle camps to control the creep wave in lane (this is complex, I won't explain it just now and don't worry about it). A trilane done badly involves everyone just hanging around in lane, spreading the experience thin (a solo hero gets more experience than a dual lane gets more experience than a trilane, etc).

Runes. Every 2 minutes on the game's clock, a rune will spawn unless the one that spawned last hasn't yet been picked up. The same rune will never spawn twice in a row. They spawn randomly at one of two runespots in the river - you can tell the runespots because there's a little floating effect in the air around where the rune would appear. They're at more or less symmetrical points along the river between mid lane and the sidelanes - one of them is near the Roshan pit, and both are have the jungle entrances from river nearby. There are five types of rune: haste, double damage, regeneration, illusion, invisibility. Haste gives maximum movement speed (522 - base speed for heroes tends to be either side of 300); double damage does exactly that; regeneration will refill a hero's mana and health to maximum over time unless they take damage, and it will keep refilling even if they're firing off spells and the like; illusion spawns two illusion copies of the hero, which do less damage and take more damage and can't use abilities; and invisibility again does what you'd expect. Heroes in the mid lane often try to control the runes - this involves support players putting up observer wards over the rune spots so that the mid can see where a rune has spawned and make a beeline for it before his opponent does. Runes are very helpful in giving a mid player the edge over their opposite number, or enabling better ganks on side lanes. The last thing to note about runes is the interaction with the bottle item - a bottle contains three swigs that give health and mana regen, and then it's empty and needs to be refilled at the fountain. But you can also fill your bottle by collecting a rune while having the bottle in the inventory, and this both stores the rune in the bottle and gives you a refill on the bottle charges once you use the rune (without a bottle the rune is activated the minute you pick it up).

Lanes are safe or hard depending on how safe it is for the players of that team to be in-lane. If you notice where the opposing creep waves meet, you'll see that it's not at the river-line - it's somewhere closer to one side's tower in the lanes. This means that, if you're on Radiant and in top lane, you need to be fairly far onto the Dire side of the map to get experience and last hits against creeps, and you have the Dire jungle right next to you which could contain who-knows-what. If you're in the safe lane - which, again, would be bottom lane for Radiant - you've got geographical features helping out your laning naturally and it's the enemy heroes in lane who have to put themselves in a vulnerable position. You're also close to your own tower for protection. The terms safe/hard are used to describe universality of tactics because top and bottom lane are very different in how you they force you to play depending on what team you're on.

I completely ignored runes for the first month of play and it didn't hurt me much. Similarly you won't need to worry about trilanes at all for ages.

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A trilane is as it sounds, a lane with three heroes in it. Usually all three heroes won't be in the lane hanging around the creeps - the supports might jungle a little or stack and pull jungle camps to control the creep wave in lane (this is complex, I won't explain it just now and don't worry about it). A trilane done badly involves everyone just hanging around in lane, spreading the experience thin (a solo hero gets more experience than a dual lane gets more experience than a trilane, etc).

Runes. Every 2 minutes on the game's clock, a rune will spawn unless the one that spawned last hasn't yet been picked up. The same rune will never spawn twice in a row. They spawn randomly at one of two runespots in the river - you can tell the runespots because there's a little floating effect in the air around where the rune would appear. They're at more or less symmetrical points along the river between mid lane and the sidelanes - one of them is near the Roshan pit, and both are have the jungle entrances from river nearby. There are five types of rune: haste, double damage, regeneration, illusion, invisibility. Haste gives maximum movement speed (522 - base speed for heroes tends to be either side of 300); double damage does exactly that; regeneration will refill a hero's mana and health to maximum over time unless they take damage, and it will keep refilling even if they're firing off spells and the like; illusion spawns two illusion copies of the hero, which do less damage and take more damage and can't use abilities; and invisibility again does what you'd expect. Heroes in the mid lane often try to control the runes - this involves support players putting up observer wards over the rune spots so that the mid can see where a rune has spawned and make a beeline for it before his opponent does. Runes are very helpful in giving a mid player the edge over their opposite number, or enabling better ganks on side lanes. The last thing to note about runes is the interaction with the bottle item - a bottle contains three swigs that give health and mana regen, and then it's empty and needs to be refilled at the fountain. But you can also fill your bottle by collecting a rune while having the bottle in the inventory, and this both stores the rune in the bottle and gives you a refill on the bottle charges once you use the rune (without a bottle the rune is activated the minute you pick it up).

Lanes are safe or hard depending on how safe it is for the players of that team to be in-lane. If you notice where the opposing creep waves meet, you'll see that it's not at the river-line - it's somewhere closer to one side's tower in the lanes. This means that, if you're on Radiant and in top lane, you need to be fairly far onto the Dire side of the map to get experience and last hits against creeps, and you have the Dire jungle right next to you which could contain who-knows-what. If you're in the safe lane - which, again, would be bottom lane for Radiant - you've got geographical features helping out your laning naturally and it's the enemy heroes in lane who have to put themselves in a vulnerable position. You're also close to your own tower for protection. The terms safe/hard are used to describe universality of tactics because top and bottom lane are very different in how you they force you to play depending on what team you're on.

I completely ignored runes for the first month of play and it didn't hurt me much. Similarly you won't need to worry about trilanes at all for ages.

Brilliant, thanks for taking the time to write all that out, really appreciate it.

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I'm free for the day now, so I'll be getting drunk and playing some Dota. If you want an invite to the guild, or if your invite got lost, PM me on Steam and we'll sort it out while we're both in the game.

Added Mac release to thread title too.

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