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Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice


The Fox
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On paper I'm massively excited about this. The two biggest superheroes finally sharing a screen together. It's the execution that worries me. The fact that Chris Terrio has re-written the script is slightly reassuring, as I don't think David Goyer has it in him to come up with anything decent.

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If only Man of Steel was an actual Superman movie then I'd be hyped for this. Just imagine how beautiful it would've been if Superman was this bright, colourful character having to do battle in the dark streets of Gotham. It would be visually stunning and a great contrast between light (Superman!) and dark (Batman). But no, everything has to be dark and gritty because that;s the only superhero movie DC knows how to make.

It's the movie equivalent of fucking Killzone.

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Holy shit that trailer is bad. At least they got the trailer for Man of Steel right, even if they colossally fucked up the movie itself.

Did Henry Cavill look like a Blue Meanie in the first film? I can't remember. The Batman actor whose name I forget just looks permanently like he did in that scene in Daredevil where he's like, 'I'm not the bad guy! (pause) Am I?' ie. fucking terrible.

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I liked it. And while I get the idea that they haven't earned it yet- that the characters aren't established, they're also Batman and Superman. I don't need to sit through another origin story, I don't need to see Peter Parker being bitten by yet another spider, and there's decades of comic books and movies who have made these guys the pop culture icons they are now, so it's not like they don't come with any history or expectations.

So on a very simple level I'm happy to see old Batman trying to beat up smug Superman.

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How generic and boring looking. I should be hyped to fuck about this but I'm just not. That trailer makes it look so lifeless and dark. It's a complete contrast to what Marvel are putting our with the AOU or Antman trailers. Of course it'll make a shitload of money because it's Batman and Superman in the same film but I just don't think it's going to be very good at all.

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Back up.

The big problem here is that neither incarnation of the characters has earned this movie.

The basis of the plot from that trailer is the false gods premise. What I can't figure out is how Superman gets from the end of Man of Steel to this status. There's a movie's worth of content there - the establishment of him as something incredible, something to be worshipped. Finally, though, that's also entirely at odds with MoS - and I am someone who enjoyed that film.

Equally this version of Batman does not exist yet. So, in one movie, they need to establish him in the MoS universe and highlight his motivations as being opposed to whatever supes are.

I struggle to see how they can set up an ideological battle between two characters whom we have no real relationship with - and therefore no shared ideology ourselves. If we can't relate to them as an audience then there is no on screen conflict to engage with. There's just CGI.

It's all just so rushed.

Trailer looks shit. But it's crazy to suggest that it's impossible to make a film about an ideological conflict between two characters unless each character has been in a standalone movie first.

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Trailer looks shit. But it's crazy to suggest that it's impossible to make a film about an ideological conflict between two characters unless each character has been in a standalone movie first.

Not impossible, but hard.

MCU waited for 7 films between Iron Man and Cap before pitting them against each other in Civil War. Obviously that's not the 'magic' number but I'd wager it'll be better for it as we now know the MCU versions of those characters so well and we can quickly move onto the plot of the conflict without having to build up credibility for their difference in world views.

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I'm not a fan of the Nolan Batman films, but this confrontation would have more chance of making the hairs on the back of your neck stand up of it was Bale rather than Affleck. I think that's what really jarrs. I think Affleck will be fine as Batman, but he should have had his own film first which teased at the events to come.

When Cap and Iron Man throw down, (barring unforseen tragedy) it will be and has to be Downy and Evans. Just wouldn't work otherwise.

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Need to see a proper version, but there didn't really seem to be much there - which is what you expect of a teaser trailer for a film still nearly a year away.

I don't think it's helped that this is coming after that great EP 7 teaser.

Happy to wait and see what happens next.

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I can't imagine watching Avengers Assemble and getting as much enjoyment from the interaction of the characters without having seen their stand alone movies first.

Sure, but it's not like we're talking Animal Man versus The Gay Ghost here. Or even a relatively unknown character (at the time) like Iron Man. We're talking about well established characters. We've just had three Batman movies, we know what Batman's deal is, we get it if he's retired. We've just had a Superman movie. There's enough superhero movies as it is, so why not do something more interesting with them and throw them against each other, rather than re-boot Batman again in his own stand-alone. It's unnecessary, audiences are already ahead of all that. I mean Guardians of the Galaxy had people I'd never heard of bickering and fighting and was great. Didn't need an origin movie for them all.

I'm not saying Snyder is the right choice, I have no idea, I liked Dawn of the Dead, haven't really liked his other stuff but a lot of that has been down to script and story. I didn't really like Man of Steel (although the 'superman as ordinary man' stuff was quite nice) and hope this doesn't descend into tedious building smashing - but I like the over-the-top epic look of this- Superman as some untouchable God and Batman as some fat guy in iron suit. :)

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I was surprised how poor the trailer looks - Zack Snyders films always look good in trailers and then make duff actual movies, but this one just isn't that interesting on any level. I mean, the last film had a great soundtrack at least, and now we're back to played out inception blarms. They seem to think just showing batman in the suit and a glimpse of the batmobile is exciting, which it isn't really. And as mentioned, transitioning from the last act of Man of Steel to where they seem to be starting off is just going to be massively dissonant.

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I was going to reply about everyone throwing their toys out of the pram and judging a film that's a year away based on a 2 minutes teaser that tells and shows us pretty much fuck all. But Goose and K did that already, so if you didn't like the trailer and for some reason think the film is going to be shit based on the teaser, read their posts. They really nail it.

However, I did want to pick up on this point and the subsequent posts, as I just don't understand/agree. At all.

Back up.

The big problem here is that (1) neither incarnation of the characters has earned this movie.

The basis of the plot from that trailer is the false gods premise. (2) What I can't figure out is how Superman gets from the end of Man of Steel to this status. There's a movie's worth of content there - the establishment of him as something incredible, something to be worshipped. Finally, though, that's also entirely at odds with MoS - and I am someone who enjoyed that film.

Equally this version of Batman does not exist yet. So, in one movie, they need to establish him in the MoS universe and highlight his motivations as being opposed to whatever supes are.

I struggle to see how they can set up an ideological battle between two characters whom we have no real relationship with - and therefore no shared ideology ourselves. If we can't relate to them as an audience then there is no on screen conflict to engage with. There's just CGI.

(3) It's all just so rushed.

(1). What does this even mean? It's Batman and Superman. What else do they need to do to 'earn' the film? You don't like the idea of Batman being a bit older and played by Affleck? Have you seen the film? Does this incarnation of Batman 'deserve' to be on screen? Does James Bond 'deserve' to be given another film? Does Belle deserve a live action remake of Beauty and the Beast? I just don't get this. I think I know what you mean, but even so, what?

(2). Guess what? That bit between the end of MoS and the bits you saw in the teaser trailer? They'll be filled in with the script. You'll be fine. There'll be (some badly written) backstory and exposition, but the teaser trailer you saw isn't the final film so your issues about how Superman will go from saving the world in MoS to being worshipped in this new film probably won't be a huge leap to understand and will also be pretty well covered in the new film I reckon.

(3). Rushed? Over thousands of comics, dozens of films and games and about 3/4 years after the last Superman film when this new one comes out? Rushed? No. DC are clearly rushing (an important difference there) to try and catch up with the sheer size and success of Marvel's MCU, and are working quickly and probably to the detriment of the films they've got planned, but rushed? Superman vs Batman as a concept rushed? No.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want origin movies for the characters, but the set up of the universe is important.

The universe was set up in MoS. In fact, 3/4 of that film was universe set-up-ery. It's what made it so shit. That and the last 30 minutes. It was mostly all shit in fairness. I do not want more of that.

Your words "neither incarnation of the characters has earned this movie."

So you're basically asking for more setup, more detail and more motivation for these characters? Like an origin story? A prequel?

Good job I'm not suggesting that then.

You basically did exactly that because apparently "neither incarnation of the characters has earned this movie."

Otherwise, I have no idea what you're asking for/moaning about.

I can't imagine watching Avengers Assemble and getting as much enjoyment from the interaction of the characters without having seen their stand alone movies first.

Well in which case it's quite handy that there's 60 years worth of Batman backstory out there for you to delve into so that you can really enjoy Batman Vs. Superman. That way, you'll really get a kick out of their 'interactions'. Watching two people on screen interact without every seeing them in their own film first has never worked. It's why we needed those Brief Encounter prequels.

I never argued we needed two new films of setup.

You pretty much did:

"neither incarnation of the characters has earned this movie."

"the set up of the universe is important" (you mean like, a prequel? Or maybe even some backstory, like we'll get in the film. When it's released.)

"It's all just so rushed" (you mean, let's slow things down and get some backstory and origins established?)

"There's a movie's worth of content there - the establishment of him as something incredible, something to be worshipped" (So you do want to see more? More backstory. More setup? More MoS? Maybe a film to see how Batman fits into this universe? Maybe some films that show who Batman is behind is mask? Maybe learn about him as a boy and what made him want to be Batman? Maybe a film where we see how he gets to be so buff? Actually, why not a film that explains why his parents are so rich; would that be handy in making him "earn" this film?

Edit: I have no idea why some of the above is emboldened and some isn't and I can't change it. Which is annoying.

As far as I can tell, you watched the teaser trailer and it assumed that the audience was really into this idea and didn't (couldn't?) want to reveal too much. You watched it, didn't buy into it and didn't like the fact that it didn't spell out exactly how the versus part of the title came to be, and rather than wait for the film to come along and fill in the gaps, you spouted a load of stuff that basically meant that you want some more prequels.

This might sound like I'm trying to read your mind/condescendingly have a pop and to an extent I am, but you can't write off this film for not setting up/justifying the big 'fight' to your liking based just on a 2 minute teaser nearly a year before it's due out. The trailer isn't great, but it's not going to be when it appears to be a load of establishing shots, darkened lighting to obscure key details and obtuse camera movements/angles to encourage the viewer to want to see more.

For what it's worth, I think Synder is ok, he's got a sense of style and ambition that means that this'll be considerably more exciting than many comic book films (albeit a lot more dour), but the premise probably exists for just two reasons; 1. To have the two fighting on screen. 2. To set up Justice League, (of course, the only reason is to make cash, but hey ho) so it may well end up being a bit underwhelming. I dunno. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

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