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Samus, Link, Mario, Who Cares?


DJ Sack
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As I have said, I haven't. But I've spent hours collecting "stars" on Mario 64, and I've played most of the previous mario games, so I dont feel the need of using my limited playing time collection "shines" in a retread of M64. I've fought through many dungeons as Link, I dont feel the urge to repeat the process especially as I can be enjoying some brand new gaming experiences such as KOTOR, BG&E and GTA3

KOTOR - Another crappy PC RPG, but on a console.

GTA3 - GTA in 3D.

See? It's easy.

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KOTOR - Another crappy PC RPG, but on a console.

GTA3 - GTA in 3D.

See? It's easy.

Sideshow - one thing yous hould know about nintendo zealots is that your opinion is ALWAYS wrong. :(

Illustrative examples only (I currently have sleep pattern issues because of GTA3, actually :o).

Pretty funny how quickly you jumped to that non-argument though.

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KOTOR - Another crappy PC RPG, but on a console.

GTA3 - GTA in 3D.

See? It's easy.

Sideshow - one thing yous hould know about nintendo zealots is that your opinion is ALWAYS wrong. :(

Illustrative examples only (I currently have sleep pattern issues because of GTA3, actually :o).

Pretty funny how quickly you jumped to that non-argument though.

well, i tend to agree with him re: the rehashes. I thought your examples were a touch silly.

Nintendo are but one company who have a number of franchises. Another example of a company who have a number of franchises is EA, but you don't see nintendo berated for slightly tweaking one of their games, giving it a new graphical sheen and flogging it at 40 quid a pop.

So there.

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well, i tend to agree with him re: the rehashes.  I thought your examples were a touch silly.

Nintendo are but one company who have a number of franchises.  Another example of a company who have a number of franchises is EA, but you don't see nintendo berated for slightly tweaking one of their games, giving it a new graphical sheen and flogging it at 40 quid a pop.

So there.

Yes, the GTA one was sillyness for the sake of it but KOTOR... :o

Perhaps it helps that I never had an N64, so these are all my first "leap to 3D" versions of the old franchises, but I would disagree that what Nintendo have done with their Gamecube lineup could be described as "slightly tweaking" (perhaps Waverace would be the closest to that, not introducing new ideas like those to be found in SMS, Wind Waker and Metroid Prime for example, but then again, I've never played the original :(), especially after having gone back and played some of the N64 versions after the GC ones. I don't see anyone berating EA in this topic - if anything, the response to them has been more positive than ever from what I recall of the last FIFA topics we had and about the likes of the new Need For Speed games (haters aside), as their "rehashes" are getting to be more than "slightly tweaking" as well.

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I think they suck (as characters). They have no personality... with the exception of Samus, who - from my limited experience - has at least something to, erm, say about stuff.

Mario is a total blank canvas, which makes him ideal as a videogame mascot, but totally crap as an actual 'character'.

Thankfully they star in (mostly) great games.

It's interesting how they've started to flesh out Mario and Luigi's characters in LM, SMS and M&L. Of course they're still neutral mascots to the public, but it's nice to see that Nintendo haven't done what Warner Bros have done with the Looney Tunes characters (i.e. turn them purely into vessels for selling merchandise).

Samus is a bit different as the point of the character is to be mysterious. It makes a change to occasionally have a character that expresses herself through movement and facial expression instead of gritty b-movie dialogue.

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It's interesting how they've started to flesh out Mario and Luigi's characters in LM, SMS and M&L. Of course they're still neutral mascots to the public, but it's nice to see that Nintendo haven't done what Warner Bros have done with the Looney Tunes characters.

Although they aren't really fleshed out that much. You never hear (or read) them speak unless it's a short, snappy emotive outburst. You've got a good idea of how they act and sound, but Mario and Luigi are still relatively blank canvases.

What has been interesting is the increasing importance of Luigi. Mario & Luigi and Luigi's Mansion have really given us an understanding of Luigi's personality and his appearances in Mario Advances 2 and 4 with his Mario Bros 2 jump have been very welcome as it's given veterans like myself a whole new perspective on the games. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him make a similar appearance in the next proper Mario game.

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KOTOR - Another crappy PC RPG, but on a console.

GTA3 - GTA in 3D.

Yes, but I had never played any crappy PC RPG therefore its a new experience to me. I've never played GTA in 3d so thats new too..

...but I have palyed Mario and Zelda in 3D, so thats not new. Unfortunatly for Nintendo adding a water feature or cell shading doesn't make them new enough for me to invest time, emotion, or money in.

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Mario, Link and Samus (in particular) are absolutely awesome characters though.

Mario is an absolutely crap character, it's everything around him that is great. Just like Mickey Mouse, he wasn't in Kingdom hearts beause he's such an annoying high pitched idiot and is the antithesis of cool. err, I digress..

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I don't get the whole mario/zelda hating thing. Who gives a fuck about the character? M64 was arguably the best game ever, SMS was annoying because it didn't introduce enough interesting new features and was a bit of a hassle to play. The equivalent can (sort of) be said about Zelda 64 and Wind Waker.

Did people have a go at Mario 64 or A link to the past? No, because they were different enough were and fucking amazing games. Their Gamecube sequels were very good, but not quite different enough. The game was slightly disappointing, not the character or the franchise.

Just enjoy the games for fucks sake, stop whining about the name on the box.

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I don't get the whole mario/zelda hating thing. Who gives a fuck about the character? M64 was arguably the best game ever, SMS was annoying because it didn't introduce enough interesting new features and was a bit of a hassle to play. The equivalent can (sort of) be said about Zelda 64 and Wind Waker.

Did people have a go at Mario 64 or A link to the past? No, because they were different enough were and fucking amazing games. Their Gamecube sequels were very good, but not quite different enough. The game was slightly disappointing, not the character or the franchise.

Just enjoy the games for fucks sake, stop whining about the name on the box.

Why? The ever-reliance on the same characters and gimmicks shows an insecurity for Nintendo, and bores the consumer into repeating what they've done before. Ish.

That's like having a go at people criticising Oasis for being the same over and over again.

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The thing is, you say ir bores the consumer but consumers like predictablilty, they dont like games that do something new or different, lookt at vice city, same game as GTA3 except some minor add ons, Mario sunshine is a bit more different compared to mario 64.

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The thing is, you say ir bores the consumer but consumers like predictablilty, they dont like games that do something new or different, lookt at vice city, same game as GTA3 except some minor add ons, Mario sunshine is a bit more different compared to mario 64.

Because Mario Sunshine sold the GameCube, didn't it?

And many people had not played GTA3 before buying a PS2 for Vice City.

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I don't get the whole mario/zelda hating thing.  Who gives a fuck about the character?  M64 was arguably the best game ever, SMS was annoying because it didn't introduce enough interesting new features and was a bit of a hassle to play.  The equivalent can (sort of) be said about Zelda 64 and Wind Waker.

Did people have a go at Mario 64 or A link to the past?  No, because they were different enough were and fucking amazing games.  Their Gamecube sequels were very good, but not quite different enough.  The game was slightly disappointing, not the character or the franchise. 

Just enjoy the games for fucks sake, stop whining about the name on the box.

Why? The ever-reliance on the same characters and gimmicks shows an insecurity for Nintendo, and bores the consumer into repeating what they've done before. Ish.

That's like having a go at people criticising Oasis for being the same over and over again.

'Gimmicks'? SMS was a great game, just not as good as M64. Are you saying that if there was a different character in SMS it would have been a better game? Personally, I don't think so. It would have been a better game if it had introduced more original stuff than it did, but as EDGE said, it shouldn't be criticised for 'only' being the second best platformer ever (at the time).

Citicise Nintend games for not being as good as previous games, sure, but don't forget how good they are in the first place. SMS was like M64 in many ways, but different, and good, enough to be a worthy game. This is all separate from the obvious economic argument that it would be nuts to drop mario and Zelda. Both arguments combined show Nintendo shouldn't, and won't, drop them.

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Citicise Nintend games for not being as good as previous games, sure, but don't forget how good they are in the first place. SMS was like M64 in many ways, but different, and good, enough to be a worthy game. This is all separate from the obvious economic argument that it would be nuts to drop mario and Zelda. Both arguments combined show Nintendo shouldn't, and won't, drop them.

Nostalgia is one thing, but the fact is that Nintendo need to start coming up with new ideas if they want to survive. Pokemon save their arses, but PSP's on the way - they'd better have something far more impressive up their sleeves than Pokemon Lily.

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Citicise Nintend games for not being as good as previous games, sure, but don't forget how good they are in the first place.  SMS was like M64 in many ways, but different, and good, enough to be a worthy game.  This is all separate from the obvious economic argument that it would be nuts to drop mario and Zelda.  Both arguments combined show Nintendo shouldn't, and won't, drop them.

Nostalgia is one thing, but the fact is that Nintendo need to start coming up with new ideas if they want to survive. Pokemon save their arses, but PSP's on the way - they'd better have something far more impressive up their sleeves than Pokemon Lily.

Yes, but my point is that if they come up with new ideas, then still have mario as the central character, then that is fine, indeed is as good as if they had a different character. The character doesn't change the game, and it is the game that should be judged.

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Yes, but my point is that if they come up with new ideas, then still have mario as the central character, then that is fine, indeed is as good as if they had a different character. The character doesn't change the game, and it is the game that should be judged.

Why is that fine?

It highlights obvious insecurity (or what should be obvious, but it clearly isn't) in Nintendo's field - being 'the great company' that they are, was it wise for them to churn out titles similar to previous incarnations (SMS, Zelda: WW, MK:DD)? Clearly, from a financial point of view, yes, because people were always going to buy them. Over familiarity is a bad thing; people are sick of Lara Croft, people are becoming sick of Mario (or already are/were) and same with Sonic (although it should be noted that a member of Sega criticised their reliance on familiar brands. Nintendo wouldn't have the balls to do that).

Looking at Nintendo's newer titles (Pikmin, Eternal Darkness, Luigi's Mansion), they financially failed. They don't know how to win new customers.

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being 'the great company' that they are, was it wise for them to churn out titles similar to previous incarnations (SMS, Zelda: WW, MK:DD)?

Mario Sunshine was about as different to Mario64 as Jak and Daxter was to it. They're both platform games and both have a 'collect-em-all' structure to them, but that's about it. If they changed the main character to, say, a fireman in a 'gritty' real-world environment, then no-one would mention the similarities dispite the actual mechanics of the gameplay being un-changed.

(This is a bit of an exaggeration, as there were also a few control similarities between SM64 and SMS, but you get the idea.)

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to churn out titles similar to previous incarnations (SMS, Zelda: WW, MK:DD)?

Yes, and have a go at their similarity if you want, but its the game you should have a go at, not the character or the franchise. A new mario game that is fresh and as brilliant as the others is a good thing, a wonderful thing.

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It highlights obvious insecurity (or what should be obvious, but it clearly isn't) in Nintendo's field - being 'the great company' that they are, was it wise for them to churn out titles similar to previous incarnations (SMS, Zelda: WW, MK:DD)? Clearly, from a financial point of view, yes, because people were always going to buy them.

I think you've mistook "good business sense" for "insecurity". Why on earth would Nintendo knock their most popular cash-cows on the head?

Over familiarity is a bad thing; people are sick of Lara Croft

No. People are sick of shit Tomb Raider games. The initial sales of Angel of Darkness were high until the word that it was shit filtered down the line.

people are becoming sick of Mario (or already are/were)

Which is why games with him in sell between 1 and 4million units with startling regularity. Which is why Mario Kart was the most popular game not available on PS2 in the UK over Christmas.

and same with Sonic (although it should be noted that a member of Sega criticised their reliance on familiar brands. Nintendo wouldn't have the balls to do that).

Which is why Sonic Adventure 2 Battle was the biggest selling GameCube launch title in the States, obviously. People are so bored with the franchise they bought 1million copies of the thing. That'll teach Sega! Hopefully they'll learn from their mistake and release Jet Set Radio 3 instead of Sonic Heroes...

Looking at Nintendo's newer titles (Pikmin, Eternal Darkness, Luigi's Mansion), they financially failed. They don't know how to win new customers.

Well they know how to not win over new customers and that's by creating new franchises as you've nicely pointed out.

To be honest, I'm failing to see your point as your post contradicts itself numerous times. Are you saying that Nintendo should scrap their franchises cos people are bored with them (even though they aren't) or to stick with them because people aren't buying their new ideas? You can't have it both ways.

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