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Street Fighter V Champion Edition


joffocakes
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I'm starting to wonder if the 8 frame delay was an intentional feature to limit defensive play.

A lot of defensive play is linked to reacting to actions of the opponent so if you nerf that ability it forces you to be less defensive.

 

I think if they get rid of this it might help bring back the neutral game as it stops people getting their offence started so easily.

 

I wonder what the ripple effect would be if they cut this out?

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Reminder that there's supposed to be a "double fight money" event this weekend (Capcom Unity). I only really play lounges and I have the season pass so I'm not interested, but it might be worth a look. :)

 

EDIT: of course if anyone wants to lounge anyway I'm down for that too; I try to check in on the discord so just ramble in there or on here or something. :P 

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As Nate says, it's Combofiend The Game. Dashing, jumping and going in are actively encouraged. Playing reactively/controlling space are extremely difficult. What's crazy to me is that they've nerfed reversals twofold by removing FADCs and adding crush counters, they've nerfed back dashing by adding counter hit too it and removing strike invincibility, but they've also nerfed blocking by making normals cause white life!

 

So your options are to go in and get your shit started before they kill you, or somehow be as good as Infiltration at hit and run.

 

I'm fine with the first of those approaches being a playstyle for specific rushdown-oriented/offensive characters, but when it's the playstyle for the entire cast with the exception of Nash it makes the game so dull to me. :(

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37 minutes ago, JLM said:

I'm fine with the first of those approaches being a playstyle for specific rushdown-oriented/offensive characters, but when it's the playstyle for the entire cast with the exception of Nash it makes the game so dull to me. :(

 

This is the killer for me as ultimately it makes every character basically the same. Although I can remember very early SFIV comments stating that the majority of the cast were all defensive and it was like "having a cast of 3S Chun li's"

 

The changes between SF3 and 3S were pretty astronomical so I'd like to think they can still change things up a lot and get the balance right.

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You'll still have a cast of characters who share very similar optimal ranges which in itself can diminish the importance of neutral depending on the character, but reduced input lag would certainly help.

 

It needs system changes as well as character tweaks, I think. Nerf Ryu's dash and walk speed but give him a proper long cr.MK with a blockstring into fireball. Make all Mika's buttons shorter. Keep Chun's buttons the same but give her less frame advantage so her combos are worse for damage and pressure (e.g. remove combo to SBK outside of v-trigger). Make Nash's fireball terrible or something. Make some characters have good low moves and some have good mid-height moves. Fang is good, Gief is good, but almost everyone else needs to be more... more... more less! Or at least more different.

 

As for system changes, I don't know yet what I'd suggest but I agree with you guys on the general issues. I would love to see a version of SF4 where you can only FADC on hit, so that would be one option I'd probably consider, maybe as an extension of v-reversal instead of an open play option? e.g. allowing you to FADC reversal timed moves for a v bar, or something, but only on hit. This would extend the meter management and balance between offensive and defensive uses and give a bit more reward to the risk of waking up with tings at reversal timing, which basically doesn't happen in this game at the moment. As well as that, I love the SFxT evasive roll so might think about that - with a back roll, rise in place and forward roll there's more chance to reset the neutral by tricking the aggressor into reading that you'll wake up quite far away from where you actually wake up. That would stay in keeping with the general philosophy of reads being more important than tech, too, and there are few things more satisfying than correctly scouting a SFxT roll and having the opponent roll right into a bad situation which only exists because they rolled. And lastly I wonder if they need to give in and bring back crouch tech, because the other OSes people are doing in its absence are getting a bit silly, and throw bait is so boring a thing to be the game's defining tactic. Putting crouch tech back would make the throw bait less braindead but still possible, and would make actual footsies more attractive by virtue of the dumb pressure being less good.

 

But like I say, unless the characters change ad well it's only going to be half a fix. And I kind of feel they're damned if they do and damned if they don't at this point, anyway. Like you say, fingers crossed they find some magical tweak which just helps everything fall into place. It's not totally beyond hope for me yet even if I haven't played it since May (according to Steam - I played at two other people's houses more recently).

 

I don't follow the game outside this thread any more though, so all my critique is based on the game as it was at Evo weekend and before!

 

Maybe we all just liked SF4 too much and no game will ever compare, and as such we're just insanely critical of everything similar.

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8 hours ago, alistarr said:

¹ Nerf...

 

² you can only FADC on hit

 

³ there are few things more satisfying than correctly scouting a SFxT roll and having the opponent roll right into a bad situation which only exists because they rolled

 

⁴ And lastly I wonder if they need to give in and bring back crouch tech

 

¹ From where I'm standing, all of the characters are seriously weak, just to varying degrees. I wouldn't nerf a thing. Ibuki has more combos and options in IV than she does in 3S, but in a slower game without parries. IV's Ibuki in 3S would be amazing. V's Ibuki, on the other hand, feels like 3S Ibuki in IV's engine.

² With the proviso that you lose your meter on block (nothing comes out - you just waste your bars), yes.

³ KoF XIV! And definitely Tekken 7 (although Tekkens are well into double figures for wake-up options, which is too many for some).

⁴ Never! You can't throw most characters if they're walking away - their backwalks take them out of range. People often get close because we're afraid of chancing our crappy pokes against CCs.

 

I put some numbers together based on my own average reactions, focusing on Birdie's light Revenger (35 frames). Almost every time this move catches me online I swear I've punished it. I haven't, and here's why:

 

Best-case:

- Monitor = 0
- Brook adaptor/stick delay = 0
- Primed reaction time = 12
- Input delay = 8
- Online delay = 3
- Total = 23

 

Worst-case:

- Monitor = 1
- Brook adaptor/stick delay = 1
- Unprimed reaction time = 17
- Input delay = 8
- Online delay = 8
- Total = 35

 

My online times use Revelator as a reference, where 5-9 seems about average against Wi-Fi users within Europe. Rev gets as low as 1 frame (2-3 against locals, wired), but I can't see V beating 3. One of the reasons for that is matchmaking through its servers. I dunno if it's changed, but they had about a dozen servers at launch, all of them in the US. Matches are peer-to-peer once you've connected, but the servers match players. You can see the problem: a UK player returns a ping of 80 ms, likewise a French player, and the server connects them (5-bar connection). But that was relatively isolated, and in practice the average between the two might shoot up into the hundreds, let's say 250, and it's suddenly a 2-bar match. Most other games put at least one server in Ireland for us.

 

Also, there's recognition time when it comes to reacting to moves. Nash's forward dash has no animation for its first third. Or, to return to Birdie's Revenger, it takes a few frames to recognise it; to add on top of the list above. And if you want to punish it with a DP, add those inputs onto the pile.

 

When you can't establish mindgames with punishes, it feels like everything becomes a lucky dip in the other player's favour, and they become even harder to read if they're smart enough to avoid obvious patterns. Because they now have reads on you, but unless they get careless, you've none - that you can prove with punishes - on them. All you can do is say ‘Stop doing that! It's not legit!’ to your telly. Except it is legit, because you haven't been able to encourage them to ditch things that you can see but not react to. The attacker sees more of the game.

 

I agree with JLM - it's who can get their oars in first, and Nash is the best character simply because he's the only one with enough mobility to bait convertible whiffs. But intrinsically, he's not that strong; it's Capcom's mishandling of UE4, with its high input delay and missing (or too-slowly-transitioning to recognise early) animation frames.

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I think in terms of the game they're actually in, and measuring them against other characters in that game, they're all too similar is the thing - everyone has similar strengths and weaknesses and a balanced game doesn't necessarily make a fun game, because the interest comes in large part from the specific imbalances. So I think making some characters worse at the dominant strategy and better at other things in return will make the game better without the character being less viable. But if they can find a way to introduce those imbalances by just giving characters stuff without taking things away then that works for me too :-) Probably do need to do something to help with the reaction times, though, if everyone's keeping their dashes! Maybe just making the animation at the start more obvious, like you hinted.

 

I hope KOFXIV is godlike but I'm definitely missing the boat. I'll see what's good to learn when my infant starts sleeping normally but for now I'm stuck with games I already know how to play...

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On 9/3/2016 at 10:29, alistarr said:

¹ I think in terms of the game they're actually in, and measuring them against other characters in that game, they're all too similar is the thing - everyone has similar strengths and weaknesses and a balanced game doesn't necessarily make a fun game, because the interest comes in large part from the specific imbalances.

 

² So I think making some characters worse at the dominant strategy and better at other things in return will make the game better without the character being less viable. But if they can find a way to introduce those imbalances by just giving characters stuff without taking things away then that works for me too :-)

 

³ Probably do need to do something to help with the reaction times, though, if everyone's keeping their dashes! Maybe just making the animation at the start more obvious, like you hinted.

 

⁴ I hope KOFXIV is godlike but I'm definitely missing the boat. I'll see what's good to learn when my infant starts sleeping normally but for now I'm stuck with games I already know how to play...

 

¹ I've heard this from quite a few people and agree. Guile's the only true zoner, and the Grobbelaars can't grabble (Alex can almost get by with his frame-advantage, but he's no Abel in terms of his flow).

 

² Yeah, I don't mind nerfs so long as they're in concert with buffs that leave each character stronger overall. But I don't trust Capcom to do that (I suspect they're nerfing Urien right about now).

 

³ I wonder if those janky animations were a case of launching too soon? 3rd Strike's well-known for having very even transitions, so you can always see what Makoto's doing (even when you can't react to it!). A lot of the animations in V seem rear-loaded (possibly to create a greater sense of weight transfer and impact), with insufficient startup cues to react to early. (Audio cues are helpful in Tekkens for this.)

 

⁴ I hear that. I've mained Tekken since Dark Res on the PS3, so I might be guilty of not putting enough hours into SF games to get the most out of them. But then again, if JLM's not feeling it... Joffo?

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Joffo loves 5. Imp loves it better than 4, as of the last time we spoke which was too long ago. Both of them can handily bop me in either game but I still say they're wrong and they should be forced to dislike 5 because my view is the correct one :-)

 

Honestly though I'm sure I would still be putting hours into 5 if I was still a carefree youngster, and I do feel a bit bad every time I post about it because it feels like trolling a thread for a game I don't play. But hey, if it was irredeemably bad we wouldn't be sitting here analysing it so much!

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It has little flashes of being really good, and  when I'm playing with friends and we have a sort of unspoken gentleman's agreement to try and play Streetfighter and not just flail wildly then I can really enjoy it. In tournament though, you're playing to win and doing what's most effective, and what's most effective is uuuugly. I've fully accepted that trying to feel out the opponent and play some neutral is a fool's errand, so now I just go in and maul and rely on being fairly good at reading and conditioning people. The up close adaptation, baiting v-reversals, going through the wheel of mix ups etc is OK, but the problem is that it's all there really is to do in the game. That and the shimmy. Boy am I tired of the shimmy.

 

The decision to stop playing in tournament until/unless major changes are made actually came after winning my losers' final match this month. I fought a Vega player who, when he ran out of ideas, just jumped over my head and did neutral jump repeatedly. I dealt with it but it is ludicrous how effective that is as a "strategy" in this game. If I beat someone doing that I'm not pleased with the adaptation I've made and happy with the win, I'm just sad that this is the game I'm having to play. Same as when I beat a Necalli. I don't feel satisfied that I outplayed them, just sort of relieved that I was able to stem the tide of the utter bullshit that character throws at you on this occasion.

 

Had another pretty successful outing at SFO yesterday though. Got to grand finals of SFV (lost to the same Mika 3-2 again!) and grand finals of USF4 (lost to Brylarke Elena). Also won the Breakers Revenge side tournament. Turned out there were a couple of secret Breakers players in attendance, which made for a fun tournament. 16 mans for Breakers, amazing.

 

Bit torn on SFV at the moment. I'm not having a very good time playing it in tournament and really want to quit, but getting to grand finals has paid for my SFO and traditional post-tournament meal for the past two months. It's become a bit like a job I suppose.

 

Loving having USF4 back as a regular tournament game though. :wub:

 

Somehow went 1 and 2 in KOF despite my team consisting of Sylvie anchor and two meat shields because I haven't practised anyone else yet. This is encouraging. Got a new converter sorted so I can actually do some practising this week. Want to play Athena/Sylvie/TBA but I'm a little bit saddened to see that Athena is seemingly on every team in tournaments and is second only to Nakoruru (who is the game's current arch villain) in the KOF14 tier and hate list. Probably won't drop her though, I'll need all the help I can get until I can figure out what the hell I'm doing. Plus she's a purply  psychic lady with orbs and a reflect who has lovely normals and makes everyone upset. She is EXACTLY the character I'm looking for.

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Funny how you mention you are playing SFV because it feels more like you should rather than because you want to because I've felt the same way with Smash Bros which is why KOF has been such a release for me. That said though once the scene is there and you are regularly involved (and in your case doing good) it is hard to let go.

 

Our circumstances are also a bit different though because with Smash people have been talking about me behind my back which puts a downer on the whole thing to the point where I only kept playing because I wanted to get the win over these people, you're just a bit fed up with SFV itself where's I'd probably still enjoy smash if the scene itself wasn't causing me to develop a chip on my shoulder.

 

Anyway the main reason I came in here in the first place.

John Takeuchi winning first attack with Rashid, I need to watch the full thing (I haven't watched much SFV tbh and people complaining about it hasn't helped) but this was hype.

https://clips.twitch.tv/leveluplive/PoisedButterflyFUNgineer

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Sad to hear your scene is bitching about you. At SFO we insult each other almost constantly but it's all love in the end. We all love seeing each other get battered but would be even happier to see SFO mans win something big. I think that's how a fighting game scene should be.

 

As you say, the scene itself and my love of fighting games generally is what's keeping me going despite the main game not grabbing me like the last one did. Thankfully there are plenty of like minded folks at SFO so there are plenty of people to play at SFIV,  Super Turbo, KOF, Guilty, Poverty fighters etc etc.

 

No representation for NRS games or KI. Little bit sad about the latter, not so much about the former. NRS games and Tekken are just a short trip to Manchester away if I wanted to though. I'm in a very fortunate position fighting game-wise where there are people local to me who are happy to play a Data East "classic" for three hours and then let me run it at the next tournament. I'd probably still show up to SFO and go to tournaments to see my friends and enjoy the hype regardless, but I don't think I'd be doing it quite so avidly if SFV was the only game in town and the other games only had five entrants.

 

It is a shame that it's split our community up though. It used to be one big tournament for the main game and then smaller side tournaments. Now it's four or five small tournaments and no big one. I miss having the main game grand finals with everyone in the venue crowding round to watch it. :(

 

I'm excited to watch that First Attack top 8 though. Love that R/Kappa are still bringing players over and he was great choice after his heroic effort in that team tournament a few months back. He beat Fuudo and Haitani back to back and had the most amazing pop off afterwards which you rarely see from Japanese players. Loved it and his Rashid is superb. First major win for a Rashid there. Can't even recall him in a top 8 before in fact.

 

 

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Since I'd seen so many people mention it but no proof offered I decided to test the Rage Quit punishment by trying to upload match clips to twitter after the match has ended, which suspends the game and disconnects from the server. Three times within 15 minutes and I got the 24 hour ban and docked 1000LP. I'll probably try again, playing all matches in the ranked set then quit from the Return to Main Menu screen to see if it still happens there.

 

(I did try the same thing in Training Mode, disconnecting about 5 times but got no punishment there.

 

 

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Urien's gonna come out on 22nd September, alongside the Daily Challenges for Fight Money and new Stage Transitions. Versus CPU mode is also being added in this update (probably not a full arcade mode, likely just the choice of fighting against AI opponents in Versus). Season Pass holders will get all the colours for the six DLC characters' Default and Battle Costumes. Anyone who has purchased Premium costumes will get the colours for any costumes they've purchased too.

 

Here's a tweet with a video of the KO to the left of Karin's stage:

 

And here's the Capcom-Unity Blog. It includes some bug fix info too but nothing major.

 

http://www.capcom-unity.com/harrisony/blog/2016/09/16/street-fighter-v-update-coming-september-22nd

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Quote

Currently, the game counts a disconnect between the “Another fight is Coming Your Way” screen until you pass-through the results screen by selecting “find another match” or “exit to main menu”. The range a disconnect penalty will be assessed will be changed to be between from when “Another Fight is Coming Your Way” to after League Points (LP) and Fight Money (FM) have been calculated on the “Results” screen.

 

That's a major change for people uploading video on the results screen ;)

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Oof, page 4? But Urien though! :wub: 

 

I didn't play him a whole lot in 3rd Strike but it will be nice to do some more stuff outside of the story missions that let you play has him for one round. Despite it being hip to say that SFV isn't interesting anymore, I've found that the steady release of content has at least kept me coming back. Admittedly, SFIV kept me coming back just by being huge amounts of fun, but at the same time I'd be interested to see what Capcom do after this in terms of a second season...

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I got the game very early but I was disappointed that It didn't accept direct input devices! So I had to use some emulator but I was not confident with the solution.

Also back them XBOX One fight sticks did not work with Windows 10.

 

Is still the same now?

The only two straightforward choices back then were:

Getting the PS4 official fightstick (madcatz released specific xinput drivers for it)

Find a 360 fightstick

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1 hour ago, daifuco said:

I got the game very early but I was disappointed that It didn't accept direct input devices! So I had to use some emulator but I was not confident with the solution.

Also back them XBOX One fight sticks did not work with Windows 10.

 

Is still the same now?

The only two straightforward choices back then were:

Getting the PS4 official fightstick (madcatz released specific xinput drivers for it)

Find a 360 fightstick

 

 

I can't help with the questions, but if you end up going with the last option then you could do worse than this lovely man's trading thread. He might even accept a low offer given how long he's been trying to sell them. I kind of wanted the pretty one myself, but I already have two...

 

 

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  • joffocakes changed the title to Street Fighter V Champion Edition

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