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Street Fighter V Champion Edition


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17 hours ago, JLM said:


You can't combo into Necalli's command grab and it won't grab the opponent if they're in hit stun (reeling from being hit) or block stun (stuck in block from blocking an attack). Command grabs are to be used as part of/as a result of conditioning the opponent. The point of it is that it beats blocking and it can't be prevented by an opponent throw tech-ing, so if they've opted to sit still for a moment it will scoop them and there isn't anything they can do about it.


Applications for it are based on reading the opponent and trying to get them to do what you want them to. The main rule of a command grab is that, generally speaking, they're best used sparingly. The threat of the grab is usually more potent than actually using it. Making the opponent scared of the grab and hitting them for trying to avoid it is one approach, or alternatively you can save it for a special occasion when you've trained the opponent to expect something else, or as a surprise move when they're close to dizzy, you need a way to open them up and you haven't shown it to them yet. All of that said, there are also times where going to it three or four times in a row is a legit tactic as well, because it creates a double bluff situation. Once someone's hit you with two command grabs in a row it's pretty much anybody's guess what the next read will be. It's a really powerful option to have but the key is finding the right time to apply it.


I'll give some examples, but keep in mind that the whole point is not to stick a to a flow chart or routine and these won't be optimal options for Necalli specifically as I haven't spent a lot of time with the character, but a basic thing would be:


You jump in on the opponent and do:


Jumping medium kick - > crouching medium punch cancelled into light kick stomp. That's a three hit combo that leaves you pretty close to the opponent once it's finished. After it hits, you are at the perfect range to do EX command grab. That's not to say it combos into EX command grab, but rather if the opponent stands still/blocks for a moment after that combo hits, you have the opportunity to grab them.


This fact creates a mix up situation that you can use to your advantage.


So let's say you land that combo for the first time in the match. After it hits, you do crouching medium punch cancelled into light kick stomp again, which the opponent blocks. So the opponent has shown you that, the first time at least, they were willing to sit and block for a moment after that combo and see what you'd next. What you've shown the opponent is that after that combo hits, you like to press more buttons to try and apply more pressure and that blocking has been the correct response.


Let's then say that you land the same combo a second time to create that same situation again. After the combo hits, the opponent blocks because you've previously shown them that your follow up is to apply more pressure with medium punch into stomp. This response from the opponent gives you the perfect opportunity to land the grab.


After that is where it starts to get interesting:


So you're playing the same person, you land that combo for what is now the third time. The first time they blocked and safely blocked your follow up attacks, the second time they blocked and got grabbed for it. The third time already gives them a difficult decision to make. They might block again, thinking that you won't go for the grab twice in a row, so you could do the grab again to beat this. Alternatively they might jump or back dash to try and escape the grab, which would cause them to get hit by the follow up attacks, or they might go for an invincible special move like a shoryuken that would beat both the grab or the follow up attacks. However, your option there is to block, and if you block the shoryuken you have the opportunity to hit them with a massively damaging punish combo.


How you play this is then based on many variables, and it is this sort of stuff that, for me, is where the magic lies in fighting games and what is difficult to explain to people who think it's just mashing buttons until someone runs out of life.


Things to consider:


How much life the opponent has (eg. if the grab will kill them they might be more likely to try something risky to avoid it, if they have lots of life they might try to call your bluff and be willing to take another one) and also anything else you've observed about them.


Are they generally patient or are they always mashing buttons and twitching?


Does their character have an invincible reversal type move? Do they need meter to do so (eg. Rashid's EX spinning mixer is his only invincible shoryuken-esque reversal, so without an EX bar he doesn't have this option)


Do you *need* to land the grab (ie are you trying to make a comeback, are they nearly dizzy, are you struggling to land damage as they're blocking everything you do?)


What's the risk/reward on your side? Can you afford to take the hit if they do something crazy? Are you in a position to just block and see what they do? If you can, make sure to make a mental note of their response. If they try to jump away and you didn't go for the grab, this lets you know that they're scared of it without you having to commit to anything. This is free information, don't let it go to waste. 


After you knock them down do they normally block after getting up or are they prone to doing reversals/back dashing/mashing buttons?


If they jump at you and you anti-air them, does that discourage them from jumping, do they just jump again?


Last time they did a shoryuken and got punished, did that dissuade them from doing it the next time or are they the type to just go to it every time? If they've just whiffed a dragon punch and you hit them with super as a punish, next time they wake up they might be scared into blocking, you might be able to sneak in a command grab there.


With these things in mind, you could go for the command grab at the first possible opportunity and then hit the opponent for trying to avoid it for the rest of the match, or you could train the opponent to block for the whole match and then surprise them with it, or you could go with any number of grey areas in between. Again, it's a really powerful option but it is crucial that it's applied correctly or it becomes worthless.








Wow, fantastic stuff JLM, thanks a lot. Was going to snip your post but thought that I'd quote it wholesale as it deserves to be read again. Wasn't able to respond at work, apologies.


I love the mind games that you describe in Street Fighter. I can see it becomes a very complicated game of rock paper scissors at higher levels, but the way you describe trying out tactics and bluffing the opponent into doing what you want sounds like you're taking a relaxed moment to ponder your next chess move, rather than reacting to one-frame links in mere fracto-seconds. :P Still very much loving the game though; it's very addictive online.



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5 hours ago, Melon_Bread said:


I challenge anyone with the Venom stick to read through this thread...




And not end up desperate to mod the buttons and slide cool new artwork in, some of the mods people have done in that thread look amazing. Shame Arcade UK have put a pause on new order due to so many people ordering new buttons for their sticks!

Beat you to it matey.  reading that was what convinced me to go back and get that shite swapped for the Venom stick.  I'll get around to modding it at some point but I really don't mind the buttons as they are.  They feel not disimmilar to my fave ever stick, the Namco.  I'll also do a piece of artwork for it at some point.  It'll give me a good excuse to dust off the paints and brushes I haven't used in years!

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1 hour ago, JLM said:

I used a Brook converter in tournament yesterday. No need to disconnect between games, no need for a DS4, no discernible input delay, just plugged my 360 TE into it and all was well. Would recommend.

This was the other option I was looking into.  Brook ones seem to be the only ones that play consistently nicely with PS2 controllers on the PS4 without a Cronusmax, from what I've read.  I couldn't find a PS2-PS4 one anywhere though.


Edit - Doesn't matter though.  The Venom will be great for playing Double Dragon and the other arcade games as well as SFV and Injustice.  It'll get a good amount of use, I hope.

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19 hours ago, ashmatuk said:

Wanting to get a beginner stick. Do I go for the madcatz fight stick alpha for £65 or the venom jobbie for £55? I'm leaning towards the venom as that seems easy to upgrade. 


Get the Venom stick. Its much more solid, and incredibly easy if you decide you want to mod it later.


I whacked new buttons, stick and artwork in mine and it took like, 20 minutes, tops.

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 There are many many variables and it happens at some speed, but there are clearly identifiable situations and flash points in rounds that you just need to learn to look for. 


A common one is both players jump, they clash air to air and then land next to each other. This happens all the time, but the way to improve is to pay attention to it and watch how players respond. Some people block, some people mash jab, some people do a risky invincible reversal. Again this is massively simplifying, but you might find that someone who shoryukens in that situation  is more likely to shoryuken  on their wake up as well. If you're not paying attention it seems like you're getting hit by a random reversal, but more often than not the reversal was that player's response to a particular situation.




What you'll find though, is that after you've played a lot of games, there are options you are much more likely to see more frequently than others. You'll also get a feel for what certain characters' preferred responses are and what certain player types will do. 


It all seems like a bunch of stuff that happens at an absurd pace, but if you identify common scenarios it all slows down in your head and you make informed reads and decisions rather than just twitch reacting to everything. 


A common occurrence might be you jump in with medium kick and the opponent blocks. You press another button but the opponent mashes DP and blows through it. It's frustrating, you get hit, you get up and begin scrapping again. It all happens in about a second. Your take away from that could be, "agh, got hit" quick rise and go straight into whatever you feel like doing next. 


Alternatively, before the fight you might think, "right, I'm going to jump medium kick, if he blocks I'm going to wait and see what he does." You do it, he uppercuts, you block it and punish him. Or you do it, he blocks, you note that he didn't mash and was willing to be patient. Also, crucially, you've shown him that you're either baiting the uppercut/a patient player/at the very least shown him that if he had mashed there it would have been costly.  It takes the same amount of time, it's the same situation but your approach makes it beneficial to you rather than just a thing that occurred. You've learned something about the opponent and you've also shown him something about you. When you approach the game like that, you also gain useful information from the first scenario , so even getting hit by the uppercut has some benefit rather than just you doing a thing and getting hit by his thing and losing some life. 


The key is to be looking for that in almost everything that happens. Sometimes you'll play against a random lunatic and it will all be for nothing, but the vast majority of the time it's a lot less random than it appears. 






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Even though I definitely cant afford it, I am now entertaining the idea of buying not one but two Venom sticks. Because it wouldn't be fair to buy just one when I'm trying to entice the boys into playing with me. I'm justifying it in my mind by the fact that it's also PS3 compatible which means we can also use them for all the fighters I have in there and any suitable arcade style games (Pac Man CE etc).


But we REALLY can't afford it...

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1 minute ago, sir_shrew said:

Would there be any point picking up Streetfighter Alpha 3 Max on PSVita as preparation for this? Or is it useless with Vita's controls?

I'm no expert, but as much as I love Alpha 3 imo it wouldn't be any good as direct preparation for SF5. IIRC it doesn't have online play? Which would mean fighting against the AI using the Vita controls, which isn't useful for preparing to fight against humans in SFV or mastering the controls of SV5. Especially if you're planning to play SFV on a stick. On the other hand, Alpha 3 is a brilliant game - the Dreamcast version is my personal favourite version though.


Ah, the Dreamcast and its vast amount of absolutely brilliant SF games :wub; : wub:

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32 minutes ago, Jolly said:

I picked up one of those Venom sticks when Ultra came to PS4, barely used the thing and now giving it a fair bit of welly. Forgive my ignorance, but why would I want to replace the buttons? 


You're stepping into the hardcorest of hardcore territory here, but players like 'Sanwa' buttons as they don't have much travel, aren't clicky and are quite quiet. You can also mod the stick to fit into a square gate (an old-skool Japanese arcade standard) or an octagonal gate that makes it easier to pull off diagonals. I only know this as I've been looking into similar! But then I realise that none of this will matter to 99% of players who pick up SFV.


:lol: I only say that because I just have no idea how to counter any of there moves whatsoever. As soon as I get hit with that ground pound thing I get juggled and all of a sudden half my health disappears.


If it's any consolation I have no idea how to do that. :P But soon...

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Speed chess is actually a better comparison than regular chess for this aspect of the game - if you know the rules but don't play often then speed chess feels like a mad dash with no time to actually plan or think, but if you're a seasoned player with a good knowledge of how the game is normally played then with most of your moves you're just going through the standard motions and letting a scenario play out, and your real attention is free to focus on any surprises your opponent throws at you, as well as thinking about what you could do yourself to trip up your opponent. You've made a lot of your responses automatic through repetition and high level understanding so you expend less energy on details which will seem all-consuming to the newcomer.


I played a couple of ranked matches this evening against new players and it's quite obvious when someone is having to expend all their attention on actually executing special moves, or repeatedly trying to do their one practised jump in combo, rather than responding to their opponent's actions. The only real way to get past that though is to practise, and to reflect properly on how your play is going either during or after a match. When you lose try not to think "this matchup sucks" (I thought this vs imp's Birdie today!) or "this player is just lucky" (Donut would have actually been justified to think this vs my Birdie today...), etc. - go back and identify the moments you were flustered or caught off guard, or the tactics your opponent used which you couldn't counter, and reflect on how you could approach things differently next time. And over time you'll refine your recipe and feel happier with how you're playing and less preoccupied with reacting in-the-moment, more able to automatically respond correctly to common things and save your energy for the finer points of the opponent and the tense moments of the match. Like playing speed chess when you're intimately familiar with every classic opening and you have a couple of variations up your sleeve.


Of course understanding all this doesn't mean you never trip up or panic or find yourself at a loss for what to do. Part of the fun is that we're all human and the game is hard enough to mean people make mistakes frequently even at the very highest level (and most of us aren't even close to that and will likely never be) - and another part of the fun is that we're playing against other humans all the time and everyone is trying to come up with new approaches and ideas which will leave their opponent forced to adapt on the fly or lose and head back home to try and figure out an answer before the rematch.

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2 hours ago, Let's measure! said:

You can also mod the stick to fit into a square gate (an old-skool Japanese arcade standard) or an octagonal gate that makes it easier to pull off diagonals.


I'd just like to say that Octagonal Gates are the work of Satan, never mod your stick to have one. The non-diagonal inputs will be too far away and it'll feel like you're waving your willy around a baggy vag. 

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Usually with SF games I only really get along with a couple of the cast and ignore the others, but I've been pleasantly surprised to find that I've really enjoyed playing with everyone I've tried so far. Zangief is crazy satisfying and Ken & Ryu, who I normally hate, are pretty fun too. I had a little go with Laura, and I'm pretty sure I want to get into some of that Nash science. Usually I just stick with the girls because they're fastest. 


I'm also really liking the dynamic music.

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I had a few matches against the mysterious SFO_Dragonman's Rashid earlier. I could not do a single thing against him. I was trying to sneak in under tornadoes unsuccessfully and getting rightfully punished for stupid jumps. I think I need a first to fifty set to even begin figuring it out. It was excellent, even if the connection was dreadful for a lot of it.

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6 hours ago, DJ KNIGHT XIII said:

Would a casual enjoy this game or is it strictly for the hardcore ?


At the moment, I would say sit this one out, and wait for either more content in March, or a price drop. There isn't enough content to keep you interested when online is not working, and when it is it is quite frustrating with infrequent matchmaking and long load times.


What is here is an excellent core gameplay experience that is really solid, and a completely revised and near-standardised move-set that makes it more accessible than ever (why didn't they do that sooner??)

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9 hours ago, Kevvy Metal said:


I'd just like to say that Octagonal Gates are the work of Satan, never mod your stick to have one. The non-diagonal inputs will be too far away and it'll feel like you're waving your willy around a baggy vag. 


Very much this. Octo gates actually make it harder to hit diagonals. 

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