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deKay
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I'm still not sure if the point is Nintendo fans are snubbing good non-Nintendo games or "serious" gamers are snubbing Nintendo.

I think Nintendo have to realise that "real" gamers from the GC era are all now 30-plus time-poor family folk, and today's "real" gamers are yesterday's filthy Halo-playing casuals. If they want to chase after the people who always liked their games, the "real gamer" is no longer where they need to go.

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Well it's something that most developers are struggling to get a handle on tbh. The absolute biggest problem for Nintendo as I see it, is that their traditional fall back customers, kids aged 4-10? are simply not into their ip's or game genres anymore. They want to play on touch screens, have no patience, they don't like challenge, they want to always win. It's a completely different ball game now.

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Well it's something that most developers are struggling to get a handle on tbh. The absolute biggest problem for Nintendo as I see it, is that their traditional fall back customers, kids aged 4-10? are simply not into their ip's or game genres anymore. They want to play on touch screens, have no patience, they don't like challenge, they want to always win. It's a completely different ball game now.

I don't think that's true, give most children in that age group a go on a Nintendo console and they still love the games. Nintendo also still has a lot of advertising on kids tv (even my four year old had heard of Kirby)

I think a big issue is down to parents. A games console for kids in that age group is a big expendature, never mind games costing 30 quid each. They'd rather buy a cheap tablet and then let the kids buy games for a few pound each. Oh, and the tablet can be "educational" too.

Maybe it's the current financial climate that's causing it (the Wii did really well before the banking crisis and people had more disposable income) but it's not that different to the 80s. Most kids made do with a Spectrum or Commodore 64, which kids could say was "educational" meanwhile they spent their pocket money on games that were a few quid each. Hardly anyone owned a Nintendo or Sega console.

When the kids become teenagers, and have more of their own disposable money, I think games consoles are viewed differently by parents.

(You could also look at how popular the DS and Wii were due to easily pirated games, so making it not such a huge expendature for the parents)

How can Nintendo fix it? Their F2P model is a good start, episodic could be another, amiibo DLC is one, but the challenge will be getting most games down from 30 quid each to a few quid, without harming the Nintendo quality they're known for.

The other way to fix it is a single console that's handheld and home based. At least then it's only one console that needs to be paid for.

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As you would expect after my previous post, I think that's papering over the cracks of the seismic shift thats currently happening in games.

I see more and more kids nowadays not wanting to engage with games the way that I did when I was young. Kids don't want to persevere with game mechanics nor controls. They lack the patience to try and fail and then retry again. Just my opinion based on what I'm seeing.

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As you would expect after my previous post, I think that's papering over the cracks of the seismic shift thats currently happening in games.

I see more and more kids nowadays not wanting to engage with games the way that I did when I was young. Kids don't want to persevere with game mechanics nor controls. They lack the patience to try and fail and then retry again. Just my opinion based on what I'm seeing.

Only if they have bad parents :P

Maybe these 'Kids' are younger than mine but at 9 and 14 I don't know any of their friends that don't have minecraft or a console for gaming with phones and tablets having the odd fad game like crossy road but being used for youtube than gaming.

Of course most of those consoles are xbox or playstation and not Nintendo....

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I think gizmos got the wrong end of the stick there, it's not the tastes of the audience that have changed, but what the industry offers. You may have had to persevere because games were either really hard or really complex, and at £40 a pop on a dedicated machine you were lucky to play more than one a year.

But now people have realised that if someone doesn't have much time for games they don't want to spent it frustrated running into a wall over and over, if someone is playing to unwind they don't want a massive manual and really complex mechanics to master, none of which are introduced clearly, and if you do the above you can actually get a wider audience and make more money. If the industry had figured all this out back in the day, it'd likely have been the same.

Aside from the price thing, that's definitely something that's changed - there's no real equivalent to having great experiences like Hearthstone, CS:GO, and Dota2 all completely free, for example.

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Again I disagree. ;) To say that the industry never offered those kind of simple experiences is to ignore Pac-Man, Space Invaders, etc etc ad infinitum. The industry has always offered them.

What I'm probably doing a really bad job of trying to explain is that kids/young adults today fundamentally expect a different experience from video games. This encompasses a wide range of topics but most importantly things like mechanics and their depth, and a games 'challenge'.

As a young kid I would happily blast away at the latest 'mindless' coin-op shooter. I would equally be happy to zoom around the universe trying to get to grips with Elite or try and try and try to progress in Contra.

I don't see this same willingness to engage with genres with kids today. And this is going to be a big issue for Nintendo going forward. I think anyway.

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I'm legitimately worried that the NX will turn out to be a generic Android tablet with television connectivity and an inbuilt Amiibo reader.

Hopefully it won't and will be something simultaneously bonkers and amazing, like a hovering UFO-shaped device that projects 4K holograms in your living room.

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Firstly, it's BEAR with me. Not bare.

Anyway "kids/young adults today fundamentally expect a different experience from video games". Absolutely. But it's not a case of the young whippersnappers not being able to handle a challenge or complex mechanics. My kids have a better grasp of mechanically complex games than I do.... They don't mind a challenge either. What Nintendo have missed isn't just the rise of tablets, but how younger and younger gamers are enjoying and playing games with a vast amount of customisability and expressive content and consuming videos about it on places like Youtube. It's rare you'll see a Nintendo game on one of the top channels on Youtube, not just because of poor streaming integration, but because Nintendo are still churning out the same sort of game experiences they were 30 years ago. My kids like Mario Kart, Nintendoland and Mario World, but they ADORE Minecraft (+Mods), Scribblenauts, Modnation Racers and the Diamond Minecart (among other things). Most kids are the same. Gaming for them is about sharing experiences - either passively through Let's Plays or general video content, and games that allow them to build, customise and create. If Nintendo want to re-ignite passion from the under 14s for their next platform they need to leverage their IPs into something that addresses this. Just slapping a touchscreen on a device isn't going to work.

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Like Mario Maker? That's a start.

I do think the rise of cheap tablet/mobile games is largely the issue. So kids are bypassing the classic "get into Nintendo period" and then get to an age when they can handle more complex games, and by then they want xbone/ps4, marketed for the teenage gamer. But the wii u failure was, as many have said, the lack of killer software. Wii sold out purely on wii sports and then wii fit. It was bizarre and they just didn't have that same novel software angle this time.

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What I'm probably doing a really bad job of trying to explain is that kids/young adults today fundamentally expect a different experience from video games. This encompasses a wide range of topics but most importantly things like mechanics and their depth, and a games 'challenge'.

I think this is kind of undermined by Minecraft being the biggest kids game right now, considering it's more complex and more hardcore than any Nintendo games (I mean it teaches you nothing, and you can lose all your progress by falling in lava), even Dark Souls doesn't do that.

As a young kid I would happily blast away at the latest 'mindless' coin-op shooter. I would equally be happy to zoom around the universe trying to get to grips with Elite or try and try and try to progress in Contra. I don't see this same willingness to engage with genres with kids today. And this is going to be a big issue for Nintendo going forward. I think anyway.

There are plenty of people on here who won't play any games outside of a very narrow comfort zone (shallow action games with AAA production values only), so the idea this is some new thing with new games doesn't really ring true. Try getting someone to try a Grand Strategy game like Europa Universalis IV for the first time when they just want to relax after work and shoot some aliens in Destiny.

How many people who consider themselves Nintendo gamers would honestly try and get into a MOBA like Dota2?

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Minecraft is an interesting phenomenon but personally I think it proves my point even more. As you say, it's a very un Nintendo game.

Minecraft preaches experimentation and sharing, which engages kids brains nowadays. It absolutely falls into my hypothesis of kids not wishing to be killed constantly. The game provides engagement pretty much non stop.

Now look at something like a 2d Mario, it has nowhere near the same level of experimentation, customisation or sharing. It's a test of simple logic wrapped around a straight eye hand coordination mechanic. It doesn't engage kids the way that they expect to be engaged now.

I agree with most of what cavalcade says too. Except that I'm not suggesting that kids can't handle challenges or complex mechs, simply that they don't want to anymore because they not exposed to those type and breadth of things now.

Regarding getting into different genres, well that's what I found my generation did as kids. I'd play any type of game. Sure I might end up not liking a particular genre or mechanic but I'd give it a lengthy go. I don't see kids doing that now. Sure, gamers kids are brought up to appreciate those things but that's a small percentage. In the main that isn't happening, imo of course.

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How can Nintendo fix it? Their F2P model is a good start, episodic could be another, amiibo DLC is one, but the challenge will be getting most games down from 30 quid each to a few quid, without harming the Nintendo quality they're known for.

The other way to fix it is a single console that's handheld and home based. At least then it's only one console that needs to be paid for.

They will never do this, Iwata has been railing against the negative spiral on game pricing since at least 2006. If you want Nintendo quality product, you are going to have to pay Nintendo prices for it.

The fix they've chosen is to diversify their business activities, utilising their core strengths.

People really need to stop having such a myopic view of what Nintendo is or could be in the future, this is what is written by Satoru Iwata on their website:

After Nintendo started the manufacture and sale of Hanafuda (traditional Japanese playing cards) 125 years ago, it has innovated itself from a playing card company to a toy company, a toy company to an electronic toy company and finally from an electronic toy company to a company developing video game platforms. Nintendo has continued to try new things, and with a history of experiencing many failures and small successes, we managed to pioneer the home video game market. What has remained the same from the past is that we have always tried to create something new from materials and technologies available at that time, to position entertainment as our core business and to improve people's QOL in enjoyable ways. We will continue to value self-innovation in line with the times and aim for growth.
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  • 3 weeks later...

Can't see a thread for this so I'll start it.

So it appears more information has come out regarding the Nintendo NX.

It would appear Nintendo is lining it up as a "third pillar" system in the same sense that they also said the Nintendo DS would live alongside the GBA (we all know how that turned out).

If the machine is starting to be manufactured as soon as October, i fail to see this being a replacement to the Wii U itself. Nintendo have said that they will continue to support the 3DS and Wii U for the next couple of years.

Personally I am expecting NX to be a tablet device. Why?

  • Foxconn are manufacturing the device (who manufacturer all kinda of tablets including Apples iPad)
  • It's most likely a Android device.
  • Nintendo have said there will be many launch titles. Tablet/mobile games do not require anywhere near as much development time.
  • Nintendo tend to shy away from having the best hardware for the past couple of generations. A Tablet device would fit in with the mentality and most tablet gamers don't care for the best graphics.
  • Most retailers have ditched selling Nintendo games. Nintendo NX will be likely be completely digital.
  • I fully expect some kind of pad to be either built in to the design or offered as a seperate device to control your games or when playing on a TV screen.

That's a few opinions on the matter anyway.

I think Nintendo having their own tablet allows them to offer a lot of their classic games as well as releasing games they wouldn't want to share with apple/android people.

Problem is, if you already own a ipad or android device, why would you want another tablet? Sure, it's would be the only device you could play android AND nintendo games but still..

Things may be heating up more quickly for the codenamed Nintendo NX console than previously thought.

Digitimes reports Nintendo has been visiting their supply chain partners recently and has ordered pilot production on the new system from Foxconn Electronics. This initial manufacturing is likely to begin in October at the latest.

Additionally, mass production on the system is rumored to begin sometime in May or June 2016, with a possible launch in July 2016. They're expected to talk more about the system sometime next year, and several other companies are likely to join in on production.

It's unclear if these rumors suggest a simultaneous global launch or a gradual roll out, although the same outlet reports Nintendo is expecting to ship 20 million consoles in its first year. IGN has reached out to Nintendo for a statement.

A number of rumors have been circulating the internet since the NX's first reveal, including ones of the console being Android-powered (which Nintendolater refuted), and of the new Legend of Zelda title debuting simultaneously on the NX and Wii U.

It could of course be something completely different.

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If Nintendo think they're having a tough time against MS and Sony, then they ain't seen nothing yet. Apple and Google are already stealing their lunch (despite some here claiming that that tablets and smartphones would never ever affect Nintendo) if they enter the tablet market and go up against them directly I suspect the result will be a bit like a boxing match between Stephen Hawking and Mike Tyson.

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Personally I am expecting NX to be a tablet device. Why?

  • Foxconn are manufacturing the device (who manufacturer all kinda of tablets including Apples iPad)

Foxconn also manufacture the PS4, Xbone and Wii U.

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I for one hope the NX is as batshit crazy* as some of their previous machines/hardware seem at first. Nintendo's attitude to hardware is refreshing in the games market, they like to experiment. Just look at this lot off top of my head.

WiiU (have a console AND a tablet then never use it properly except for UbiSoft)

Wii (WAGGLE their way to millions)

DS (How many on here said 2nd screen was waste of time)

Donkey Konga Bongos!!!

Gameboy Camera and Printer (errrr wut?)

N64 controller

glassless 3d (not a flop by any means but hardly a USP)

VirtuaBoy (oops)

R.O.B. (hahaha)

Their success is very variable (half of the above were disasters) which isn't great for a longterm business that has to answer to shareholders but it's fun for gamers so long may it continue I say!

Let's face it they don't have a large enough fanbase to sustain producing a string of "gamecubes" (decent bog standard nintendo consoles with excellent games bought by the fans) or even worse wasting money on making machines that are bleeding edge gfx tech. The MS/Sony market just won't buy Nintendo... look at the sales figures for "hardcore" games on nintendo hardware, even on the successful Wii they were woeful compared to MS and Sony.

If they can produce lightning in a bottle every so often then that's brilliant, and in meantime supplement the income with mobile game offshoots and bleed your hardcore fanbase dry by producing plastic figures in short supply.

* an exaggeration but they certainly push the boundaries and jump outside the box way more often than MS and Sony

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Virtual Boy.

Were the bongos just NIntendo licensing the Taiko no Tatsujin concept from Namco?

You might be right, I ummed and ahhed at including them as i had a feeling they may have been licensed

similarly powerglove, wasnt sure if that was a 100% nintendo endeavour

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