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deKay
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4 minutes ago, pulsemyne said:

Just for the sake of being clear there are a few things to note. Firstly the portable mode is still full fat Unreal 4 and not Unreal 4 mobile which is what can be used in phones etc. There settings on Unreal 4 range from 0 (off) through to 4 (basically ultra).

And these are the base default levels, developers can push these higher (or lower) if they so wish.

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22 hours ago, Alex W. said:

So:

 

Undocked, it's as powerful as the WiiU, but only needs to drive half the pixels, so it's effectively twice as fast.

Docked, it's twice as powerful as the WiiU, driving the same amount of pixels, so it's twice as fast.

 

In any scenario it's going to leave the WiiU in the dust.

 

How so? the screen has been confirmed to be a 720p screen, so unless you want to go down the much complained about PlayStation Vita/home console route of sub-native rendering, it'll be driving the same amount of pixels as the Wii U did with a similar level of power available to do so. Both of the third-party games they chose to show during the reveal looked like X360-era games visually, which makes sense given the specs now known.

 

 

21 hours ago, pulsemyne said:

The main difference between Pascal and maxwell was that thanks to the shrink Pascal cards can clock much higher than maxwell cards could. The did the same things the same way in how the chip worked but they could go faster and use less electricity doing it.

A good example in this is the difference between the old 980ti graphics card and the new 1070GTX card. Essentially they perform about the same in games, with a slight difference here and there, but there is a big difference in how much energy they use. The 980ti could drink 250 watts at max performance. The 1070GTX eats about 150. So the card performs a bit better with less power usage and high clocks. It can also overclock a lot.

 

As for switch well it will be difficult to say just what customisation has taken place unless they release specific specs. There are some things they could do over the regular X1 tegra that would allow them to have good power at a lower clock speed, but I won't go into that. If they do then the portable mode could be as high as 350 Gflops ish or as low as 150 ish. Either way that's still better than the wiiu (hence Zelda running better even in portable mode)

 

You forgot to mention one thing about why Nintendo might have preferred to wait for Pascal if they weren't in such a rush, a Pascal-based chip would also be smaller and hence cheaper to manufacture over the longer term (980Ti is massive compared to the 1070 chip, but that is partially down to the huge gulf in manufacturing nodes, not just the move to 3D transistors), along with the better battery life it would have brought.

 

Clinging on to the FP16 boost is about as useful as when Mark Cerny said the PS4 Pro could be seen as a 8 TFLOP machine if you used that option, unfortunately most games can't.

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39 minutes ago, mushashi said:

 

How so? the screen has been confirmed to be a 720p screen, so unless you want to go down the much complained about PlayStation Vita/home console route of sub-native rendering, it'll be driving the same amount of pixels as the Wii U did with a similar level of power available to do so

 720p is a little under 1 million pixels, 1080p is a little over 2 million pixels. 1 is about half of 2.

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15 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

 720p is a little under 1 million pixels, 1080p is a little over 2 million pixels. 1 is about half of 2.

i believe the majority of WiiU games are 720p

 

so the undocked one is as fast as WiiU and driving as m,any pixels

docked it is faster than a WiiU and driving twice as many pixels.

 

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2 minutes ago, Clipper said:

i believe the majority of WiiU games are 720p

 

so the undocked one is as fast as WiiU and driving as m,any pixels

docked it is faster than a WiiU and driving twice as many pixels.

 

 

Oh, okay then that makes much more sense.

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 I should be clear that some games are 1080p 60fps like Smash Bros - I am not sure if there is  a definitive list anywhere but as a quick guide

 

Super Smash Bros. , The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker, Rayman Legends, and Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate are all 1080p and the latter is 30fps

 

Mario Kart , Super Mario 3d World, Donkey kong tropical freeze,wonderful 101 and NSMBU and LuigiU are  720p/60 as are most other major releases 1st party.

 

Again not sure there is a definitive list but everything says that 1080p is rare and 720p is more common

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, mushashi said:

 

How so? the screen has been confirmed to be a 720p screen, so unless you want to go down the much complained about PlayStation Vita/home console route of sub-native rendering, it'll be driving the same amount of pixels as the Wii U did with a similar level of power available to do so. Both of the third-party games they chose to show during the reveal looked like X360-era games visually, which makes sense given the specs now known.

 

 

 

You forgot to mention one thing about why Nintendo might have preferred to wait for Pascal if they weren't in such a rush, a Pascal-based chip would also be smaller and hence cheaper to manufacture over the longer term (980Ti is massive compared to the 1070 chip, but that is partially down to the huge gulf in manufacturing nodes, not just the move to 3D transistors), along with the better battery life it would have brought.

 

Clinging on to the FP16 boost is about as useful as when Mark Cerny said the PS4 Pro could be seen as a 8 TFLOP machine if you used that option, unfortunately most games can't.

 

Pascal and Maxwell are similar enough that they'll likely have a route to taking the die shrink and saving money after a year or two.

 

Disappointed they've gimped the performance for battery life - 1 was hoping closer to 70-80% of Xbox One performance than 50%. I wonder if the clock lock is in software where they could theoretically free it up later if they wanted.

 

FP16 won't be a game changer but it'll probably give a modest boost for some titles versus raw figures.

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3 hours ago, Clipper said:

Mario Kart , Super Mario 3d World, Donkey kong tropical freeze,wonderful 101 and NSMBU and LuigiU are  720p/60 as are most other major releases 1st party.

 

 

 

 

Mario Kart is 59fps ;)

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1 hour ago, kensei said:

 

Pascal and Maxwell are similar enough that they'll likely have a route to taking the die shrink and saving money after a year or two.

 

Disappointed they've gimped the performance for battery life - 1 was hoping closer to 70-80% of Xbox One performance than 50%. I wonder if the clock lock is in software where they could theoretically free it up later if they wanted.

 

FP16 won't be a game changer but it'll probably give a modest boost for some titles versus raw figures.

Extra boosts will come in the form of vulcan and a specific nvidia low level api. The original spec given to developers was pretty much the tegra X1 spec i.e 1ghz GPU and 1Tflop performance. Now considering Nintendo have less wattage to play with (probably around 8 watts and that's with the display running as well instead of they 20 watts full power tegra uses) it's portable mode GPU speed is very likely the best they can get away with for battery life.

What the initial aim of the project probably was was for there to be a little bit better than WiiU power in portable mode and about 3-4 times the power in docked mode, mostly used to render out things at a higher resolution with some a better image quality and slightly nicer effects.  

Also interestingly Unreal 4 docs used to refer to switches settings under the codename "Wolf". Wonder if that is the name used for the custom tegra chip? Nintendo do name their chips (Expresso, Latte, Flipper, Broadway, Hollywood etc). Rather funnily AMD once had two chips with the names Mario and Luigi. Atari had Tom and Jerry and Pokey.

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19 hours ago, kensei said:

 

Pascal and Maxwell are similar enough that they'll likely have a route to taking the die shrink and saving money after a year or two.

 

Disappointed they've gimped the performance for battery life - 1 was hoping closer to 70-80% of Xbox One performance than 50%. I wonder if the clock lock is in software where they could theoretically free it up later if they wanted.

 

FP16 won't be a game changer but it'll probably give a modest boost for some titles versus raw figures.

 

They could just swap out the Maxwell bits with a Pascal version when they go for a redesign, much in the same way Sony swapped out the 7850/70-based old GCN chip done on a planar node for the latest Polaris GCN FinFet chip on the PS4 Pro, most of the re-engineering work has been done as it is by Nvidia for the move to 3D transistors with the PX2 SoC.

 

The clocks are all alterable, so if it ever gets hacked, you should be able to unlock it to whatever the particular chip sample can handle. Part of the reason they would want to be conservative about clocks is due to yields and making sure the maximum amount of viable chips can be extracted from each silicon wafer, you can't do binning on a console APU/SoC. Both the Xbox One and PS4 have 2 possibly usable extra compute units disabled on the die for this very reason, 2 spares if you find a defect.

 

 

18 hours ago, pulsemyne said:

Extra boosts will come in the form of vulcan and a specific nvidia low level api. The original spec given to developers was pretty much the tegra X1 spec i.e 1ghz GPU and 1Tflop performance. Now considering Nintendo have less wattage to play with (probably around 8 watts and that's with the display running as well instead of they 20 watts full power tegra uses) it's portable mode GPU speed is very likely the best they can get away with for battery life.

What the initial aim of the project probably was was for there to be a little bit better than WiiU power in portable mode and about 3-4 times the power in docked mode, mostly used to render out things at a higher resolution with some a better image quality and slightly nicer effects.  

 

Well that's dependent on how much you believe Android OS gimps performance and how much you believe coding to the metal gains you in comparison to that. We've several examples of what both the K1 and X1 SoCs are like in performance when compared to the last gen consoles, so it comes down to how much console optimisation can make up for lowered clocks. You'd have to hope Android OS is that shit. It will be interesting to finally put to the test with a 100% apples to apples comparison of whether console coding to the metal does deliver that much more than an OS heavy abstracted system, as the PC to home console comparisons only ever look at the GPU, and never the CPU that has to power said GPU, which are identical in this case.

 

We've also already seen what a 20nm mobile Maxwell is capable of being clocked to portably, with the Pixel C, if you are willing to shove in a huge battery.

 

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29 minutes ago, mushashi said:

 

They could just swap out the Maxwell bits with a Pascal version when they go for a redesign, much in the same way Sony swapped out the 7850/70-based old GCN chip done on a planar node for the latest Polaris GCN FinFet chip on the PS4 Pro, most of the re-engineering work has been done as it is by Nvidia for the move to 3D transistors with the PX2 SoC.

 

The clocks are all alterable, so if it ever gets hacked, you should be able to unlock it to whatever the particular chip sample can handle. Part of the reason they would want to be conservative about clocks is due to yields and making sure the maximum amount of viable chips can be extracted from each silicon wafer, you can't do binning on a console APU/SoC. Both the Xbox One and PS4 have 2 possibly usable extra compute units disabled on the die for this very reason, 2 spares if you find a defect.

 

 

 

Well that's dependent on how much you believe Android OS gimps performance and how much you believe coding to the metal gains you in comparison to that. We've several examples of what both the K1 and X1 SoCs are like in performance when compared to the last gen consoles, so it comes down to how much console optimisation can make up for lowered clocks. You'd have to hope Android OS is that shit. It will be interesting to finally put to the test with a 100% apples to apples comparison of whether console coding to the metal does deliver that much more than an OS heavy abstracted system, as the PC to home console comparisons only ever look at the GPU, and never the CPU that has to power said GPU, which are identical in this case.

 

We've also already seen what a 20nm mobile Maxwell is capable of being clocked to portably, with the Pixel C, if you are willing to shove in a huge battery.

 

True and there's no active cooling in a Pixel C. I guess one major thing could just how much of the chips is custom. Design docs oddly refer to the chip being used as "Second generation maxwell" so who knows how much it's been tinkered with. Still if it's good enough in portable mode to do wiiu+ power then it's still way ahead of alot of tablets out.

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40 minutes ago, Napole0n said:

Don't worry, once it's clear it'll produce graphics more suitable to a 2010 machine, we'll  go back to "specs aren't important" mode.

They're not.... the results they get from those specs are, and we will all find out in just under 3 weeks thank fuck, I'm fed up of it maybe being powerful or being under powered, I just want to see what the games look like that I'll be getting in March.

This lack of straight information seems to have worked well for them, I can't wait to get one, even if it is 2 Wii U chips glued together, and I have nt gone out to buy a Nintendo machine day once since the N64 ( although that was an import, so way before day 1).

 

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20 hours ago, pulsemyne said:

True and there's no active cooling in a Pixel C. I guess one major thing could just how much of the chips is custom. Design docs oddly refer to the chip being used as "Second generation maxwell" so who knows how much it's been tinkered with. Still if it's good enough in portable mode to do wiiu+ power then it's still way ahead of alot of tablets out.

 

2nd gen is just what the variant of Maxwell that the mobile Tegra chip uses, same basic tech as the 970/980 desktop chips or the TX1, gen1 Maxwell is stuff like the 860M and 750Ti, which are missing some stuff that the later revision has.

 

I think people get way too hung up on the customisation aspect of console GPUs, they usually add some features from the 'future' not present on the original chip (Both of the PS4 GPUs have features not present in the base GPUs they are based on too), but that rarely make them secret sauce powerful compared to the base technology.

 

If it was being sold as a portable first device, then the specs are fine, but it isn't, because I suspect the pricing means that marketing it as a home console which is seamlessly portable is the only way to make it acceptable (somebody with insider knowledge on NeoGAF said as much), $200+ for a limited use portable device is a tough sell, while as a home console, it becomes somehow a bargain.

 

If Nintendo come out and say this also runs fullfat Android, along with their custom OS, now that would be a bargain, a nice powerful Android tablet and a dedicated games machine in one, I'd be very interested in that concept. Pixel C is about £300, undercut that, bargain.

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6 minutes ago, pulsemyne said:

I do know that tegra x1 is like a half way house between maxwell and Pascal. Some of the modifications in Pascal are in X1. Anyway best not too get too hung up on it. As for the OS it's labelled as Nintendo OS so probably some form of custom android.

 

I think you have missed the main clue in the extra power the Switch specs have, its quite subtle so who can blame you!

 

Nintendo OS = NoS

 

14750nos.jpg

 

 

Vin+Diesel+With+Nitrous+Oxide+Systems+in

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45 minutes ago, DarkCrisis said:

For thoughs that have registered for the event on the 14th/15th weekend have you had an email confirmation as I closed the page with the details on the expecting an email but I have yet to receive one.

 

Nothing yet, no.

 

Imagine me getting to play Mario Switch months before Scott and DeKay....Miyamoto might even be there for a hug! Hohoho

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Based on the release of the Switch, is it worth considering a Wii U at this point? 

My 6 year old son has started gaming and enjoys Plants v Zombies 2 on the XB1 but he desperately wants a Wii U to play Splatoon. He got some money towards the Wii U from various relatives over Christmas but I was surprised to see that the price consistently around 250 pounds and then have found out about the Switch release in the Spring.

 

Just wondering whether it is worth picking up a Wii U now.....

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