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Edge #285 - LBP vs SMM

Keyboard Koala

By Keyboard Koala,
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Stanley

Stanley

Posted
Posted

There's a strong difference to what you're describing in mgs as broken. It's internally consistent and it works.

A platformer that doesn't respond to button presses, has unresponsive and inconsistent controls - I think it's fair to state that -objectively- and call it broken. We're talking about how something behaves mechanically not by design.

If if wasn't so important you could get away with it. I mean the controls in Witcher III are a bit fucked and unresponsive too. But so much else is done well that I can understand the high scores. In LBP it's the first thing they needed to get perfect, and they didn't.

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Nespresso

Nespresso

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Posted

Not as cross as I was with edge after buying the game based on their review of an early build!

In all seriousness though, have you heard the recent news that Night Dive are currently making a HD make-over of Turok 1 and 2 on PC?

I was excited but then it turned out to be nothing more than a fullHD port (which is fine I guess). I don't think they're doing any visual or audio work on it.

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NEG

NEG

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Posted

Fucking Skyward Sword :angry:

On the Zelda quality scale it barely deserves a 5

but I wasn't a controller hater, just the general 'treat the player like a fucking idiot throughout the game + so damn linear' nature of it makes it the worst Zelda ever made by Nintendo themselves.

Considering we wait 5 or so years between proper console Zelda games, something I live to get excited about because it's fucking Zelda, it really, really got on my nerve that THAT was what we got. Fucking hell.

Ahem

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Mr. Gerbik

Mr. Gerbik

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I was excited but then it turned out to be nothing more than a fullHD port (which is fine I guess). I don't think they're doing any visual or audio work on it.

Well the good news is that somebody is rereleasing and optimising those games for modern systems at all. Because if Night Dive was able to get the rights, it means nobody was doing anything with that ip. It's better than nothing, but it also means you probably won't see a reboot anytime soon.
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Escape

Escape

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Posted

So the problem is you disagreeing, not games being given a 10.

As more games are given 10s, every individual's chance of agreeing with them all reduces. Is there anyone on this entire forum who agrees with all eighteen? And how many agree with at least one?

When a success rate's subjective, more action increases the likelihood of a growing number of disagreements. Yes, 10s are a problem.

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JPickford

JPickford

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You're both right really. Every 10 devalues every other (a tiny bit). But that shouldn't be a factor for the reviewer.

I'm not really bothered about Edge scores but I think Super Mario Maker is something very special. It's a better tool than pretty much any actual dev has had access to (although, to be fair that applies to LBP as well). But that tool SMM is coupled with the single best game/engine/series of its genre. The combination is utter magic.

LBP as a tool is incredible. You can INVENT stuff. Make machines, even simple computers. It's way more powerful than SMM in terms of creative potential. It just happens to be built on some very unsatisfying game mechanics which can't really be got around. Also, I hate the way the simulation is always running - I much prefer the separation of edit/play modes. That might be the programmer in me talking.

To bore on a bit. I was hugely disappointed wit LBP. But there are parts of it which go beyond 10/10 - they are unprecedented both in scope and the fantastic interface. It's a 15/10 game dragged down to 7/10 by a flawed core mechanic.

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Escape

Escape

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Posted
On 25/09/2015 at 10:37 PM, JPickford said:

Every 10 devalues every other (a tiny bit). But that shouldn't be a factor for the reviewer.

Yeah, 10s are a problem was badly-worded up there. What I meant to say is that they're a problem because of the way they're now used to profit from arguments. There's absolutely nothing wrong with any of us declaring personal 10s, but you shouldn't try and commercialise them any more.

Many have said that WipEout HD has shit controls. I love that game, but I can see how tiresome it'd be if you were struggling to avoid the walls. I feel it's a 10, but I know that's a minority view and I would've gone for an 8 if forced to. Holding back my own feelings while trying to second-guess others', though... Better to just say that I loved it, and that I found it hard to control for a bit.

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deerokus

deerokus

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Posted

Some aspects of LBP are genius but the controls are poor. Having used a few level editors in my time I was shocked how hard it was to make anything feel good. In contrast you can spam random blocks on a Mario Maker map and you have something fun.

Perfect example of this: Giant Bomb made a Mario Maker level on a live stream following crowd-sourced ideas and orders selected arbitralily from their chat in less than an hour with no 'playtesting' - and it still played surprisingly well, because the physics, controls, enemies and rules of Mario are so perfectly refined that random nonsense ends up being fun in that game. There's no way that would work well at all for something like LBP. There's some very clever level design that happened by accident in that process.

(you can watch that here, and watch it being played by someone who hadn't seen it being made here: You might enjoy it more watching a little bit of the latter video first).

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Sprite Machine

Sprite Machine

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Posted

There's a strong difference to what you're describing in mgs as broken. It's internally consistent and it works.

Specifically, it's stealth games that don't work like that that I've described as broken. In fact, you may recall, I argued years ago that the removal of vision cones from MGS3 was a mistake that effectively made the stealth element randomised and therefore not fit for its purpose.

Lots of people disagreed though, because... it's subjective.

A platformer that doesn't respond to button presses, has unresponsive and inconsistent controls - I think it's fair to state that -objectively- and call it broken.

Well, here's the thing: if it could be objectively stated, then you wouldn't have to "think" that it was "fair" to say it. That's a judgement call. Judgements are subjective. That's what subjective means, dependent on or from the perspective of, the subject (in this case, you).

Subjectivity isn't some dirty thing to be avoided, it's pretty much the reason for entertainment existing. You want to call something broken because you don't think it's fit for purpose, that's fine. But given its purpose is to be entertaining, that can never be an objective assessment.

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Nick R

Nick R

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Perfect example of this: Giant Bomb made a Mario Maker level on a live stream following crowd-sourced ideas and orders selected arbitralily from their chat in less than an hour with no 'playtesting' - and it still played surprisingly well, because the physics, controls, enemies and rules of Mario are so perfectly refined that random nonsense ends up being fun in that game. There's no way that would work well at all for something like LBP. There's some very clever level design that happened by accident in that process.

(you can watch that here, and watch it being played by someone who hadn't seen it being made here: You might enjoy it more watching a little bit of the latter video first).

I very rarely watch Let's Plays but I watched all of that second video. What an evil level!

And so frustrating that it took him so long to think of spin jumping on top of the Thwomps at the start of the gauntlet run!

At the very end he has a comparison video to how the level is supposed to be played. His version's better - he's right, capes are for cheaters. :ph34r:

... Now for the first!

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deerokus

deerokus

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Posted

Yep, and somehow it created some elements of surprisingly smart level 'design' - for example the Boo-llet Bill cannon at the start forces the player to hurry as the boo that it fires positions itself perfectly to block you off if you wait on top of the pipe to try to jump over Bowser.

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