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Ah k.

At the hotel area just before the core now and I think I know what my problem with this game is, or rather my expectations for it. For starters It's been getting a ton of glowing reviews and ended up on quite a few end of year lists. So suffice it to say my expectations were rather high. Now I get why a lot of people get on with it... It's quirky, funny and obviously well written stuff. However, based on what I've played so far, it would be the same as putting something like Jazzpunk on a top 10 list. It's a cool experience and filled with subversive content, it surprises you every step of the way and is simply a fresh take on the genre. However to say that it's a great game would be a bit of a stretch. The same way how The Stanley Parable is a terrific experience but not for everyone as all you do is... well walk, basically. With Undertale there's just nothing there to keep me engaged. I hate bullethell shooters so the combat is just awful to me and when it comes to actually progressing through the game the second half tries its very best to interrupt you as much as it possibly can. I get that all of that scientist nonsense is part of the actual game but to constantly have a character interrupt you every, single, time as you make your way through a new screen is just plain annoying to me. Based on the intro of the game I was expecting it to be more akin of a puzzler filled with RPG elements but it just does away with both of those things under the guise of jokez and calls it a day.

I fear when I read "this is the best game ever" I didn't take into account that some of you also proclaimed Kylo Ren to be the best baddie ever and seemingly having blacked-out on Heath Ledger's Joker, Hans Landa, Hannibal or Loki even, just to name a few.

Undertale so far has been a fun experience, most of the time, but I'd rather have spent my money on something else instead and waited for this to be available on the cheap (and not be taken in by the hype).

There's a number of reasons why people have jumped all over it:

i) Fantastic humour, and

ii) Well-done story

These are two elements that painfully lacking from a great number of games, and probably more irritating when someone is told how funny something is -- for example, Borderlands -- only to discover that it's full of shitty memes and exhausted storytelling models or boring old character archetypes. The way I see it, the humour and story to Undertale is very similar, in that they both live on lengthy set-ups that lead to an eventual punchline or pay-off, whilst being fairly modest about its own delivery and presentation. It helps a lot that it's all under the vision of one person so as to keep it consistent, but it definitely feels much more relevant than the disjointed nature of stuff like Tim Schafer's latest disappointment.

iii) LGBTQ/Gender positive presentation

The non-judgemental nature of the game with regards to these elements has also found it a big following, all without crowing about its own moral superiority. Ironically there's been people complaining about these elements, in a sense that they are "triggered" by the game's friendly nature (I saw it on another, recently killed forum I posted on, and one of the people from Penny Arcade whinging about it), and the lack of self-awareness is nothing short of completely fucking staggering.

EDIT:

iv) the music and its variations on various leitmotifs

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V) Unique battle system for a old-school looking RPG.

VI) It plays on RPG expectations and traditions quite a bit.

VII) Would you like some Nice Cream?

Edit: But ultimately for me, it very much comes to the character writing.

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@Liquid Myth

It's not that I disagree with your points and I can definitely appreciate why people love the fuck out of Undertale. But that being said, it simply hasn't clicked for me I suppose, the 'game' just isn't there for me. However I do hope more games follow its example in the future with regards to the way it handles gender equality. That's been one of its strong suits for sure!

I'm gonna start Lisa after this and from a distance they both seem very similar. So here's hoping I'll end up at least enjoying one of the two. :P

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I can't wait to play it again, actually. I've a 'Pile of shame' category in Steam with... a number of games in it :mellow: but gladly this has been flagged 'Complete' and moved out, mega-chuffed I gave it a play. In a lot of ways I've enjoyed it more than the Witcher 3, mostly 'cos it's cute, clever and funny. And it tickles a lot of those 16-bit memories as it plays with the classic RPG formula. Not to mention the soundtrack!

I actually sat at the PC last night torn between Elite and starting Undertale again, thoughts on a pacifist run. How many confirmed endings?

I think it'd make an excellent mobile game.

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Well I'm fucked. At the Asgore fight and I only have 40hp, no healing items and my attacks aren't doing that much damage.

EDIT: Never mind, uninstalled. Looked up some endings on youtube. Wut.

Yeah definitely can't be bothered to walk back thirty seconds and buy some food.

The game absolutely has some flaws, but I feel like ten minutes in you decided you didn't like it and became utterly determined to have no fun and definitely not co-operate with the game by playing it in the manner it wants to be played with - games wise.

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I also don't get the "not-a-game" complaint, it's Earthbound, which is a JRPG in the classic mould, which in turn are based on classic WRPGs like Wizardry - like basically you could cut open its "game DNA" and trace it all the way back to Mitochondrial Eve at the start of the games industry.

 

I'm always suspicious of proclamations of "not a game" because it seems something that gets deployed against games with gameplay and heritage that are maybe just a bit indie and different, or maybe catering to an audience slightly outside of the norm - like the Wii or Minecraft.

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I also don't get the "not-a-game" complaint, it's Earthbound, which is a JRPG in the classic mould, which in turn are based on classic WRPGs like Wizardry - like basically you could cut open its "game DNA" and trace it all the way back to Mitochondrial Eve at the start of the games industry.

I'm always suspicious of proclamations of "not a game" because it seems something that gets deployed against games for being a bit indie and different, or maybe catering to an audience slightly outside of the norm - like the Wii or Minecraft.

I've been thinking about it some more and for me the biggest problem I have with Undertale and similar titles is that instead of you dictating the pace, the game takes over control and determines the player's interaction with the world itself. I had the exact same issues with To The Moon, Little Big Planet and the God of War series. Yes God of War! Why? Well compare it to any other game in the same genre and you'll quickly realise that you're constantly waiting for the game to keep up with the player. Whereas Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden and Bayonetta all let you go as fast as you want, GoW takes more pride in its presentation rather than providing you with snappy controls and combat. This is one of the main reasons I didn't get on with Undertale but did end up enjoying games like Jazzpunk, Thomas Was Alone and The Stanley Parable (just to name a few). They let you move and explore the game space without interruptions while still managing to subvert the player's expectations.

I really wanted to like this game, honestly! But alas it was not for me. :)

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You have a lot of freedom in Undertale, the very nature of the battle system itself presents you with multiple options each time. Movement is free to go anywhere at any time, to speak to any one, much like any RPG. You skipped over it.

That's a huge difference from To The Moon and Stanley Parable, where the choices you can make are extremely more limited.

This is also without pointing out the obvious of the freedom of being able to go anywhere you want to go, you can go backwards and check up on people, ever think about doing so? Did you really expect Open World? Even Open World can be considered linear progression-wise, depending on the game. It's essentially just more side quests. The choices you make in Undertale are more open than many RPG's out there.

The only freedom in Bayonetta is which buttons you want to smash at each enemy*. It's still a wonderful game, but please be aware of what you mean by freedom. Otherwise it's as linear as Streets of Rage.

*Which you get to customize, but it's still = smashing buttons, game isn't 'Open'.

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Don't feed the troll.

That's a bit much coming from you.

Also I'm not trolling? I thought we were having a regular and civilised discussion about the game.

You have a lot of freedom in Undertale, the very nature of the battle system itself presents you with multiple options each time. Movement is free to go anywhere at any time, to speak to any one, much like any RPG. You skipped over it.

That's a huge difference from To The Moon and Stanley Parable, where the choices you can make are extremely more limited.

This is also without pointing out the obvious of the freedom of being able to go anywhere you want to go, you can go backwards and check up on people, ever think about doing so? Did you really expect Open World? Even Open World can be considered linear progression-wise, depending on the game. It's essentially just more side quests. The choices you make in Undertale are more open than many RPG's out there.

The only freedom in Bayonetta is which buttons you want to smash at each enemy*. It's still a wonderful game, but please be aware of what you mean by freedom. Otherwise it's as linear as Streets of Rage.

*Which you get to customize, but it's still = smashing buttons, game isn't 'Open'.

Haha *woosh*
What I meant with the Bayonetta vs God of War example is that with the former it adheres to your play style. It executes every input with minimal to no lag and doesn't interrupt you in any way (unless there's a cutscene of course) The latter however has slow animations, cutscenes where you have to mash buttons and overall isn't as snappy as... well, pretty much any other game in that genre.
Anyway as I said earlier, I did really want to like the game but I just didn't find the art particularly great nor did I find any fun in when the game did hand me the controller. Again, that being said I can see why people got on with it. It has charm, witty writing, throws many of the genre conventions out the window and as far as endings and choices go it does so in large quantities apparently. It's the execution that bothered me, is all.
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That's a bit much coming from you.

Also I'm not trolling? I thought we were having a regular and civilised discussion about the game.

Haha *woosh*
What I meant with the Bayonetta vs God of War example is that with the former adheres to your play style. It executes every input with minimal to no lag and doesn't interrupt you in any way (unless there's a cutscene of course) The latter however has slow animations, cutscenes where you have to mash buttons and overall isn't as snappy as... well, pretty much any other game in that genre.
Anyway as I said earlier, I did really want to like the game but I just didn't find the art particularly great nor did I find any fun in when the game did hand me the controller. Again, that being said I can see why people got on with Undertale. It has charm, witty writing, throws many of the genre conventions out the window and as far as endings and choices go it does so in large quantities apparently. It's the execution that bothered me, is all.

It was trolling to not walk back 30 seconds, then uninstall, then tell us, watch youtube, and add a 'Wut' to the end of it.

You probably didn't find the last weapon upgrade in the house, which wasn't particularly hidden, to boot. Also the last armor upgrade nearby.

As for 'play style', that's a fair response, the game (Bayonetta) reacting to the style you want to push buttons is freedom, yes. Almost like playing a different class of character. There are no additional classes in Undertale. The closest is one of the weapon upgrades allowing you to push buttons 'multiple times', which is meaningless by the end.

Freedom can certainly mean different things (and different things more important than others) to different people.

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It was trolling to not walk back 30 seconds, then uninstall, then tell us, watch youtube, and add a 'Wut' to the end of it.

You probably didn't find the last weapon upgrade in the house, which wasn't particularly hidden, to boot. Also the last armor upgrade nearby.

As for 'play style', that's a fair response, the game (Bayonetta) reacting to the style you want to push buttons is freedom, yes. Almost like playing a different class of character. There are no additional classes in Undertale. The closest is one of the weapon upgrades allowing you to push buttons 'multiple times', which is meaningless by the end.

Freedom can certainly mean different things (and different things more important than others) to different people.

It's not about button mashing lol. I think I've explained this about three times now. Someone help. :(

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For what it's worth I can see where VN1X is coming from. I loved the game but struggled against the mehanics throughout. I had a very similar experience with the final fight. I had no food left and didn't have enough money for the food in the hotel. So I had to trek all the way back to the temmie village to sell items in order to afford food. Was very annoying.

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I didn't pay much attention to the way some of the monster behave on my first play. The veggie monster got me on my first play, boasting about being totally organic. But I think the angry rabbit things made me start fighting them.

This time, the veggie monsters are throwing me food (which heal) and when the rabbits are on their own, they do a proper little dance and they're really happy and talk to you. They've just fell in with a bad crowd :hug:

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So, I've been playing this since Christmas, and I completed it for the first time tonight.

Flowey has stolen my save file? I can't play the game any more? I've tried starting the game five times since, but he keeps killing me. I don't know what the game wants from me.

Not really sure what to make of it. If I didn't suspect there was a lot more value in repeated play throughs, I'd be disappointed. If the game would let me play again.

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So, I've been playing this since Christmas, and I completed it for the first time tonight.

Flowey has stolen my save file? I can't play the game any more? I've tried starting the game five times since, but he keeps killing me. I don't know what the game wants from me.

Not really sure what to make of it. If I didn't suspect there was a lot more value in repeated play throughs, I'd be disappointed. If the game would let me play again.

Keep playing, I know that particular fight against Flowey is completely impossible at first, but stay determined! You'll beat him eventually if you just keep trying.

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Do I just have to keep throwing myself at him, and eventually something happens/it gets easier? Or do I just have to get better? I've tried five times already, which is three times more than I've had to attempt any other boss in the game.

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I'm just a few hours in, since I hold off playing this game since the demo felt quite long-winded in my memory. But I was wrong and there's all the reason for the love for this game. It reminds me of the best of the Mario RPG's, but far more condensed and lovely. It helps that it basically throws one cute idea after another at you and discards them almost immediately, so that you never get bored with them. The random battles also seem to have been reduced significantly compared to the demo, bringing the focus more to the lovely dialogue and atmosphere.The fighting system and general gameplay is shallow, but it makes up for it by changing the patterns and strategies for (non-lethal) defeat constantly, thus keeping players on their toes the same way deeper system would've done.

The graphics were also something that I wasn't looking forward to, but after a while it just started to remind me of the old Zelda games on the Game Boy (Link's Awakening and the Oracle games, my favourites of the series by far). It has the same slightly abstract feeling to it that fits and the rapid change in environments helps, especially with the nice views that are thrown in from time to time. And the music is bloody, bloody fantastic.

I love that we live in a time that such tiny gems are immediately recognized and become immediate successes. I don't think this game would've made it ten years ago.

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