Star Wars: The Last Jedi

[Unofficial Who]

On 24/12/2019 at 02:41, Dirty Harry Potter said:

No, just basic common sense.

 

Getting back the director that split your "sure thing" franchise in two - and then trolled and alienated a lot of your fans - is not going make Disney share holders very happy. And for good or bad they ultimately run the show.

 

I doubt Rian would even want to do it (unless he enjoys having lots of detractors).

 

 

 

In vindication of @Dirty Harry Potter

 

https://insidethemagic.net/2020/12/rian-johnson-trilogy-star-wars-rwb1/

 

Quote

Johnson’s trilogy was completely left out of Investors Day.

Disney’s Investors Day event this year was massive. Lucasfilm alone announced a multitude of projects, including confirmation of its next two films — the Patty Jenkins-helmed Rogue Squadron (2023) and Taika Waititi’s as-yet-untitled feature-length project (2025).

This means the next unaccounted for Star Wars movie isn’t set for theatrical release until 2027 — a full decade after the original announcement of the Rian Johnson trilogy. The fact that it wasn’t even mentioned in passing at Investors Day when essentially everything else Lucasfilm is working on was discussed also doesn’t bode well for its future.

 

Short version

 

Quote

At this point, it seems reasonable to assume that the three-film project has been scrapped or, at the very least, is being reimagined to such a degree that it won’t even resemble its original form.

 

Saying this as someone who loved TLJ it's fair to say that if people think the RJ trilogy is still going to happen then they should prepare for their expectations to be subverted.

[probotector]

Did TLJ really subvert our expectations?

He just did what ever he wanted and didn’t expand the universe at all. 
 

He wimped out of the only subversion that would have mattered, the rey/ren throne scene was amazing but then they subverted our expectations right at the end by being predictable the one time we wanted to be subverted!

[Bazjam]

The Last Jedi is easily the best Star Wars film since the original trilogy. And certainly better than The Mandalorian, which is average at best, yet you all seem to wet your pants over.

[Dirty Harry Potter]

I do wonder if the people that love TLJ see each Star Wars film as an individual story, and the people that hate it - see each film as part of the skywalker saga as a whole. 
 

Otherwise how does it make sense to basically undo everything you set up in the chapter before, as well as simultaneous close all the story threads so the final chapter of your saga has nowhere to go?
 

Johnson’s approach was like a kid who didn’t want anyone else to play with his toys. 

[Dirty Harry Potter]

7 hours ago, Bazjam said:

The Last Jedi is easily the best Star Wars film since the original trilogy. And certainly better than The Mandalorian, which is average at best, yet you all seem to wet your pants over.

 And nahhhhh.

[Robobadlad]

10 hours ago, makkuwata said:

I watched it again today. It’s objectively a bad movie. Most of its runtime is irrelevant to the ultimate outcome and unlike Raiders it isn’t Raiders.

 

This is such strange criticism. Isn't the same applicable for Empire Strikes Back? Han and Leia spend the whole film trying to escape just to get captured at the end. It doesn't mean that the time spent with them wasn't essential to the film, even if the end result is the same. 

[ryodi]

I liked  it when it was released and after rewatching Iv to IX recently I still enjoyed it. Possibly because four of those films had exactly the same plot and it at least tried to do something new but while I can understand the complaints Leia surviving the destruction of the bridge the only low point for me. 

[Waggo]

Come off it the Space Chase alone was utter bollocks, totally lacking in any sense of tension, peril or urgency.  It simply is not in the same league as ESB, or BSG which on a tv show budget produced an episode (33), with pretty much exactly the same concept but a million times better.

 

Then you get onto Casino Planet, Mary Poppins Leia (A character who for obvious if tragic reasons needed to be killed off anyway), the fact that it was clearly a self contained story and not part of a trilogy, totally out of context comedy (Po putting Hux on Hold WTF???).

 

The only bit I don’t have an issue with surprisingly is how they handled Luke, which was an interesting direction to take the character.

 

The rest though utter shite, and I can’t see myself as a massive Star Wars nut ever watching it again.

[Paulando]

It’s an odd film for sure, because for me the highs are some of the best moments in any Star Wars film (Luke, Yoda, throne room, the final act, Rey’s parents, the general message behind the film), but the low points are undeniably shitty. The Force Awakens was much the same, but the gulf between the high and low points was much less, which makes it more palatable I suppose.

 

Overall, it’s just a shame the whole trilogy wasn’t a single vision from beginning to end. That isn’t JJ or Rian Johnson’s fault.

[monkeydog]

45 minutes ago, Dirty Harry Potter said:

I do wonder if the people that love TLJ see each Star Wars film as an individual story, and the people that hate it - see each film as part of the skywalker saga as a whole. 
 

Otherwise how does it make sense to basically undo everything you set up in the chapter before, as well as simultaneous close all the story threads so the final chapter of your saga has nowhere to go?
 

Johnson’s approach was like a kid who didn’t want anyone else to play with his toys. 

 

I don't see the films as separate, just made up as they go along. That's as true for 4-6 as 7-9.

 

TLJ only rips up the parts of TFA that are desperately tired and by the numbers.  I was really excited for part 9.  It was a wide open canvas for whichever writer/director team that stepped up to the plate.

 

Unfortunately it was JJ again and not Dave Filoni.

[MechE]

Whilst I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in this thread again, I'm really intrigued by this critisms:

10 hours ago, Nick R said:

* The bombs falling in space

Why wouldn't they fall (i.e keep moving in the direction they are initially propelled)?

[Barnard]

Killing off Luke a film too early is what really puts the dampeners on the film for me. Would rather he had passed away during the opening scroll of The Force Awakens if this was how they were going to end the Skywalker saga. 

 

The end of Rise and it's 'rey Skywalker' doesn't quite fulfill the epic story the other 6 films put together. (Even though the prequels are a mess)

[Mogster]

12 hours ago, Barnard said:

'fan fiction' - the old slur used to keep the Hollywood writers in a job. Slap those budding writers down early before they dare get good at writing.

Alan Dean Foster is hardly a budding writer. I was reading his Alien novelisations as a child! I imagine he's been writing for longer than Rian Johnson.

 

Anyway, in this case fan fiction is literally what he was writing; a treatment for third film that would retcon as much as possible from the second because he didn't like it. I'm not making a slur, that's literally what he said he was doing.

[Fierce Poodle]

1 hour ago, MechE said:

Whilst I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in this thread again, I'm really intrigued by this critisms:

Why wouldn't they fall (i.e keep moving in the direction they are initially propelled)?

For God’s sake, please don’t open this can of worms again. You’re dealing with Star Wars fans, normal rules of logic and rationality do not apply. If you’re really interested there’s probably about a million YouTube videos by bearded incel man babies to pore over.

[K]

It’s long been established in Star Wars lore that bombs fell in space during the OT era but not in the post-Battle of Endor era, which explains why the bit in Empire Strikes Back where they drop bombs on an asteroid is fine, and the bit in Last Jedi where they drop bombs on a Star Destroyer is an abomination. This is because of the Death Star II’s effect of warping geodesics in space-time. Proving this is a simple

matter of developing a simultaneous non-linear differential field equation, and solving it for the metric tensor of local space-time for the asteroid with the big worm in it. 
 

I would strongly advise anyone interested in this subject to read Bobson Dugnutt’s seminal 1996 EU tie-in novel Towards a New Hermeneutic Thesis of Midichlorianic Field Interaction With Gravity and the Weak Force: Why Star Wars Has Accurate Physics, Actually, and then start writing your letter of apology to me for getting Star Wars wrong. 

[makkuwata]

1 hour ago, MechE said:

Whilst I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in this thread again

 

I started typing then decided this wasn't going to be what my day is about.

[Unofficial Who]

2 hours ago, Dirty Harry Potter said:

I do wonder if the people that love TLJ see each Star Wars film as an individual story, and the people that hate it - see each film as part of the skywalker saga as a whole. 
 

Otherwise how does it make sense to basically undo everything you set up in the chapter before, as well as simultaneous close all the story threads so the final chapter of your saga has nowhere to go?
 

Johnson’s approach was like a kid who didn’t want anyone else to play with his toys. 

 

So speaking as someone who loves it I do see The Last Jedi as a part of the Skywalker saga. I guess though I have different expectations that led to myself really liking it and you not liking it. And I doubt any discussion we have is going to lead to you liking it or me hating it although a lot of this discussion has led me to understand why the people who don't like it just don't and for the most part they're pretty valid reasons, sometimes the reasons for you not liking it are the very reasons why I like it!

 

In regards to undoing everything I kind of have two views on this.

 

-Sometimes the best stories do have this moment of despair or hopelessness. I think if it hadn't have become so political you would have seen things turn around. And for me the themes of the TFA and TLJ seemed to be about handing on the torch to a new generation.

 

I think there were plenty of places for the last movie to go without reopening old paths. To me it seemed like a new hope. To others, I think they'll always see Yoda laughing as the Jedi texts burn as a metaphor for Rian's stewardship.

 

-Sometimes though, things fall apart. Heros get worn down. Legacies are undone as people lose hope or become corrupted. Institutions fall apart. People fail. I might be drawn to this because I've seen this in my own life but I can see why others might not be able to relate or as some have "I go to a Star Wars movie to escape from that." Which can't really be argued with. You like what you like.

 

I think your characterisation of Johnson is unfair, I feel like he got to play with the toys only to have them snatched away and be told, "NO! You aren't playing with them right!"

 

I want to avoid talking in circles here and given the time that has passed you're going to have to accept that some people like myself and others on the forum as well as a few critics loved The Last Jedi.

 

And I'm going to have to accept that you and a few others will always dislike the movie. Alongside the majority of fans. And most of the audience (42% on Rotten Tomatos). And some very prominent authors. As well as some of the key actors in the cast. And also Disney themselves who are the curators of the franchise and have since moved away from the key themes in the Last Jedi in the next movie as well as moving towards a direction TV wise that has been praised by the majority of fans (critics and fans of TLJ both) and additionally who have seemingly quietly cancelled the Rian trilogy.

 

I think you're just going to have to be satisfied with that.

 

[Unofficial Who]

18 minutes ago, makkuwata said:

 

I started typing then decided this wasn't going to be what my day is about.

 

See my answer above. You don't need to type anything. Time and the future direction of the franchise has vindicated the critics of the movie here. You and other fans have spoken, Disney has listened. QED.

[MardiganX]

The Last Jedi’s biggest problem is not the film itself but the fact they didn’t double down on the direction it took things.

 

Personally, I really didn’t like how they handled Luke, but I understood it and would have no doubt grown to appreciate it more if Episode IX actually carried things through. Instead, TLJ was more or less hung out to dry as they desperately tried to course correct with the ROS and that just led to more problems overall.

[makkuwata]

5 minutes ago, Unofficial Who said:

 

See my answer above. You don't need to type anything. Time and the future direction of the franchise has vindicated the critics of the movie here. You and other fans have spoken, Disney has listened. QED.

 

25 minutes ago, makkuwata said:

 

I started typing then decided this wasn't going to be what my day is about.

 

5 minutes ago, Unofficial Who said:

 

You don't need to type anything.

 

25 minutes ago, makkuwata said:

 

I started typing then decided this wasn't going to be what my day is about.

[Unofficial Who]

3 minutes ago, MardiganX said:

The Last Jedi’s biggest problem is not the film itself but the fact they didn’t double down on the direction it took things.

 

Personally, I really didn’t like how they handled Luke, but I understood it and would have no doubt grown to appreciate it more if Episode IX actually carried things through. Instead, TLJ was more or less hung out to dry as they desperately tried to course correct with the ROS and that just led to more problems overall.

 

And that's Disney's fault to an extent. The original trilogy may have had different directors but they had a unified vision. That's where the failure was here. Rian left the next set of writers a difficult road to tread, especially given the overwhelmingly negative feedback from fans but to be fair Rian was left with a whole heap of JJ mystery boxes to unpack. I suspect that's a mistake Disney won't be making again.

 

Unfortunately the other takeaway they've had from this is that they've cut Rian loose when in retrospect the correct decision would have been to have the same writing team (or key people) write for the Skywalker saga and have Rian do his own trilogy from start to finish.

[Dirty Harry Potter]

@Unofficial Who Well said, and I don’t want or expect to change the opinion of anyone that’s loves it. Fill your boots.

 

Not killing Luke off, and leaving him to redeem himself in Episode 9 - would have mostly sorted out many people’s issues with TLJ (and over time would have healed alot of its wounds). It would have also given the final film something to do.  But that is as much Disney’s fault as it is Rian’s.

[Delargey]

Luke abandoning the cause was set up by JJ A though, wasn't it? He had gone into seclusion, told no one where he was and had that look of pain on his face when Rey presented him with the lightsabre- I'm curious what people who hated RJ's version wanted/expected with regards to this?

 

 

[JoeK]

I like a lot of the visuals in Last Jedi - in places it's a gorgeous looking piece of film-work. I kind of like the bits with Luke in (milking the alien aside). 

 

But there's so much wrong with it just in terms of telling a coherent story it's untrue. It feels like Johnson was pushing just how much bollocks he could chuck in the mix before he got called out on it...and it would appear he was able to throw it all in there without anyone wondering what he was doing. I congratulate his efforts on that part.

 

It's several degrees better than Skywalker though - that was absolutely diabolical in every way.

 

 

[Dirty Harry Potter]

There are many, many issues with TLJ (imo) but Luke being a grumpy hermit isn’t one of them - it’s more that he was killed off before he needed to be. It added little to the story - and would have been much more dramatically satisfying to have another film with Luke, that explored who he was - now he wasn’t in such a bad mood.

[MrPogo]

Yeah. It went “Finally! After two entire films of teasing us about it, Luke’s back! The next movie is going to be awes... oh, wait, he just died for no apparent reason?”.

[Delargey]

15 minutes ago, Dirty Harry Potter said:

There are many, many issues with TLJ (imo) but Luke being a grumpy hermit isn’t one of them - it’s more that he was killed off before he needed to be. It added little to the story - and would have been much more dramatically satisfying to have another film with Luke, that explored who he was - now he wasn’t in such a bad mood.

 

Yeah, but then you'd have to deal with Luke being a super powered jedi bad ass, able to solve most problems- over shadowing Rey or invent reasons why he doesn't just fuck everything up with his force powers.

 

[Darren]

13 hours ago, Nick R said:

Bits of TLJ I really like:

 

* Almost all of the Rey/Luke island scenes. The Dark Side cave/mirrors scene bringing some mystery back to the Force. Luke saying out loud what was wrong with the Jedi order.

* The Yoda scene. 

* Rose's introduction scene.

* PORGS

* The way Snoke gets taken out.

* The last shot.

* The Luke duel.

 

Bits that I get what the aim was, but I don't think completely work:

 

*  The Poe/Leia/Holdo storyline subverting stories of maverick loners always being the heroes.

* Leia's flight through space. The idea is fine, I think it's just the choice of shots that made it come across as silly to so many people.

 

 

Bits that I don't like:

 

* The casino chase.

* The fact that the film is structured as a very slow pursuit through space, with some characters able to nip off for a side-adventure. (Yeah, the film's critics have a point with that one.)

 

 

Bits that I don't like because they were inherited from The Force Awakens, where they were also bad:

 

* Snoke.

 

 

Bits that would have been much more interesting if they'd been done differently:

 

* If Rey had taken Kylo Ren's offered hand after the throne room right, that would have been a really surprising place to leave Rey before the third film. (Possibly too dark for Disney?)

 

 

Bits that I like mostly because of how much they annoyed other people:

 

* The iron gag.

* Luke saying "laser sword".

* Luke and the blue milk.

* The bombs falling in space.

This guy gets it.

 

13 hours ago, Stigweard said:

Shit all over everything 

 

Give it a rest. How did he shit all over everything? By trying to do something new and expand the universe rather than everything revolving around the same group of related people. 

 

Lukes arc was great imo and completely in character with how rash he is. This is a guy who went from knowing nothing about the force to jumping right into it like a zealot in like 2 days. I could totally see him fucking off and abandoning things after fucking up so bad. He's like all the other Jedi before him, completely imperfect.

 

People aren't happy because they wanted Superman Luke, where as I found his change in direction interesting and new and it allowed for his wonderful moments with Rey, Leia and the piss taking of Kylo in the fight.

 

Sure the film isn't all great, there's loads to pull at and criticise but I have zero issues with Luke in this film.

 

The fault all lies at the feet of Disney anyway for not having things set out from the get go and then cowering to the crybabies for the ROS reconning. 

And this guy too!

 

I get that people wanted to see heroic all-conquering Luke in this trilogy, but surely the very first Star Wars film sets out why that was never on the cards. In that, the old hero becomes mentor to the new hero, and sacrifices himself to pass on the baton, while becoming “more powerful than you can possibly imagine.” What Luke did for Rey in TLJ is what Obi-Wan did for him in ANH, but unlike that crazy old hermit, this crazy old hermit had come to realise that Jedi dogma was at best a red herring and at worst a recipe for disaster.

 

If Disney are at all sensible they’ll already have Daisy Ridley signed up for episodes X-XII in 15-20 years time, in which she will follow in the same footsteps for the hero of those films.

 

As yet another crazy, bearded old hermit once said, it’s like poetry; it rhymes.

[Delargey]

4 minutes ago, MrPogo said:

Yeah. It went “Finally! After two entire films of teasing us about it, Luke’s back! The next movie is going to be awes... oh, wait, he just died for no apparent reason?”.

 

Surely, it was only one movie teasing it?

[MrPogo]

14 minutes ago, Delargey said:

 

Surely, it was only one movie teasing it?

There was the “they’re obviously going to find him and then he’s going to help and be awesome” film, then the “oh ok, but he’s obviously going to be convinced to help and be awesome at some point; this is a movie after all” film. Just then they added the “twist” where he melted for some reason.