Star Wars: The Last Jedi

[Delargey]

I thought Luke trolling Ren, and fighting him without fighting him, was quite fun...but horses for courses.

 

Luke running around slicing storm troopers in half and crushing AT-AT's with his fist would also have been cool. Though, then who defeats him? Does he just do an Obi Wan?

 

 

[K]

As an aside, it’s particularly funny that the Alan Dean Foster retcon ends with Luke dying and his last words being “Aunt Beru” given that after she dies in Star Wars, Luke is a bit sad for one scene and then is fine and never mentions her again. 

[BitterToad]

2 hours ago, Unofficial Who said:

And I'm going to have to accept that you and a few others will always dislike the movie. Alongside the majority of fans. And most of the audience (42% on Rotten Tomatos). And some very prominent authors. As well as some of the key actors in the cast. And also Disney themselves who are the curators of the franchise and have since moved away from the key themes in the Last Jedi in the next movie as well as moving towards a direction TV wise that has been praised by the majority of fans (critics and fans of TLJ both) and additionally who have seemingly quietly cancelled the Rian trilogy.

 

I think you're just going to have to be satisfied with that.

 

Once a year we do this thread and once a year you do a post in which you say "I loved it but the majority of fans or the true fans or Star Wars fans hated it." 

 

This is still not the case. It's a fair split between those that liked what Johnson did and those that hated it. I'm a huge Star Wars fan and I deeply loved that it changed characters I loved and tried to move forward into a future in which Star Wars wasn't six people but an idea. Critics loved it, a lot of people on here who have lived and breathed this franchise for a lifetime like myself also loved it, the fact that the people complaining are complaining that it isn't enough like a 30 year old film does not mean they are the true fans of this franchise. 

 

Right I'm out to grab some rosary beads and repeat "arguing about The Last Jedi on rllmuk does me no good."

[Paulando]

15 minutes ago, K said:

As an aside, it’s particularly funny that the Alan Dean Foster retcon ends with Luke dying and his last words being “Aunt Beru” given that after she dies in Star Wars, Luke is a bit sad for one scene and then is fine and never mentions her again. 

Perhaps Aunt Beru was Rey’s mother in his version, and Rey and Kylo are first cousins once removed.

[Delargey]

21 minutes ago, K said:

As an aside, it’s particularly funny that the Alan Dean Foster retcon ends with Luke dying and his last words being “Aunt Beru” given that after she dies in Star Wars, Luke is a bit sad for one scene and then is fine and never mentions her again. 

 

And that this somehow brings it full circle. I guess it was her that got him hooked on blue milk in the first place.

[Hexx]

2 hours ago, Delargey said:

 

Yeah, but then you'd have to deal with Luke being a super powered jedi bad ass, able to solve most problems- over shadowing Rey or invent reasons why he doesn't just fuck everything up with his force powers.

 

 

Super-powered Jedi (or Sith) weren't really a problem in the first 6 films - perhaps the new trilogy writers are just piss poor 

[Delargey]

Well, you had Yoda and Palpatine hurling massive bits of metal round like they were ping pong balls in the prequels so you could argue the rot set in before.

 

I'd have rather they kept it on the smaller scale - which is why a preferred Luke's astral project rather that physically being there.

[Hexx]

38 minutes ago, Delargey said:

Well, you had Yoda and Palpatine hurling massive bits of metal round like they were ping pong balls in the prequels so you could argue the rot set in before.

Yeah that was CGI fest garbage but at no point do they ‘solve most problems’.

 

The idea that a powerful Luke would have limited or restricted the story is bobbins. 

[Delargey]

It's just personal preference innit, as you said, in the originals Jedi/Sith were powerful but not overly so and I referred that.

 

You see it a lot in superhero type movies now where the heroes smash through 50 mud coloured men, instead of thinking "wow, the heroes are great, I just think those minions are shit."

 

 

[makkuwata]

 

Star Wars is saved. End of thread.

[Harsin]

Is he cosplaying as the fifth Doctor?

[kensei]

11 hours ago, Delargey said:

Luke abandoning the cause was set up by JJ A though, wasn't it? He had gone into seclusion, told no one where he was and had that look of pain on his face when Rey presented him with the lightsabre- I'm curious what people who hated RJ's version wanted/expected with regards to this?

 

 

 

There's a few routes you could go:

 

- Luke is under a sustained force attack from Snoke; he's having trouble perceiving reality with visions Snoke is sending. He's isolating to protect others

 

- Luke is running from the need to kill his nephew. He wouldn't kill his father and he won't kill his nephew, but he doesn't know how to reach him. He's searching for a way. 

 

- Luke is looking for the lion turtle that will let him break connections to the force. There's a copy of Avatar in the first Jedi temple. 

 

The idea that the only option is what we got is nonsense. Not saying any of those are good ideas but decent writers could come up with ones. 

 

What I wanted was Luke to be recognisably the character from ROTJ. Older maybe, changed a bit but the things that made him Luke were still there. If you want to bring Luke to a different place - a character with a lot of love and a lot of preconceptions, you have to show and not tell. Walk the audience there. This couldn't possibly have. 

 

The force projection was actually a good scene. It fits Luke as as a non violent solution to a problem. In a better film it'd have been an absolute fist punch moment. But despite being a perfect way to not kill Luke, he goes and kills Luke. I maintain because he wanted the bit at the end with Like staring and seeing two suns. It's poetry, it rhymes. 

 

Anyway, the single worst crime of this film is the misplaced humour at the start. Tarkin was not comedy relief. What the hell was he thinking with Hux? Worse than Mary Poppins, worse than Canto Blight. 

 

Whoever said the Krusty WTF cave scene was any good is beyond my understanding, though. 

[hub2]

1 hour ago, Harsin said:

Is he cosplaying as the fifth Doctor?

 

OMG. Mark Hamill would be amazing as the Doctor. Why haven't we thought of this before.

 

(A yank Doctor would be interesting, if only for even more  blowback than a female or non white male actor playing the character).

 

Edit: Sorry, I forgot I need to nail my colours to the mast about TLJ:

 

Spoiler

Yawn. Get over it.

 

[kensei]

6 hours ago, Delargey said:

It's just personal preference innit, as you said, in the originals Jedi/Sith were powerful but not overly so and I referred that.

 

You see it a lot in superhero type movies now where the heroes smash through 50 mud coloured men, instead of thinking "wow, the heroes are great, I just think those minions are shit."

 

 

 

You are thinking about the wrong way. Luke ultimately needs taken off the board - either temporarily or permanently - in order for the new characters to own the sequel. 

 

That gives a decent writer the opportunity to escalate the threat. Baddie X has neutralised Luke! He's scary as hell, what can Rey possibly do? 

 

Or baddie X exploited Luke's trusting nature and that's how they won! Should Rey continue to follow Luke's teachings? Could she now be tempted by the Dark Side, Luke failed after all... 

[Delargey]

the idea of Luke using a non violent means to allow the heroes to escape seems just the same as those examples to me.

 

At least, it's not as offensive as Rose crashing directly into Finn to save him.

 

But, it all depends on what you wanted, I liked grumpy Luke and Rey not being related too some legacy character but lots of people wanted something else so I can see how it would be a disappointment to them.

[Mogster]

Luke dying was clearly a thematic choice more than anything, as a large part of the film's purpose was to break Star Wars away from the original trilogy and move on. "Let the past die" and all that.

 

I do agree that it didn't really have to happen though. Johnson could still have had a shot of Luke looking up at the twin suns, exhausted but relieved, and still free to return in the future.

[kensei]

Luke's projection was a legitimate good bit of the movie. But in context I'm irritated by things that happened before and after it and it isn't this uplifting punch the air moment. L. 

 

Instead apparently the entire anti New Empire forces can fit on board the Millennium Falcon - that's the entire galaxy's rebels, Luke died because ??? and it feels like defeat because of Luke's previous character.

 

If it's the grand solution to the problem Luke's been having, rather than him coming out of a huff, it'd scan differently. 

[Darwock]

I’m amazed that all the arguing about the shitness of the sequel trilogy is still taking place in this thread, and not the Rise of Skywalker thread.

 

Surely nobody would argue with hindsight that TLJ was the worst of the three movies?? All sins of Rian Johnson should have been forgotten once Ep IX got shat out onto our screens.

[kensei]

10 minutes ago, Mogster said:

Luke dying was clearly a thematic choice more than anything, as a large part of the film's purpose was to break Star Wars away from the original trilogy and move on. "Let the past die" and all that.

 

I do agree that it didn't really have to happen though. Johnson could still have had a shot of Luke looking up at the twin suns, exhausted but relieved, and still free to return in the future.

 

Yes. But I don't think the second part of a trilogy with strong plans to make Leia an important part of the third is the place to "Let the Past die". 

 

The film also ultimately rebuked that, with Luke saying he would not be the Last Jedi and Rey floating a shitload of rocks because Rey can do that now because Rey can do whatever she needs when she needs to in the first two films. 

 

If you want to doubled own on that theme, end the film with Rey taking Kylo's hand in the Throne Room. 

 

[kensei]

3 minutes ago, Darwock said:

I’m amazed that all the arguing about the shitness of the sequel trilogy is still taking place in this thread, and not the Rise of Skywalker thread.

 

Surely nobody would argue with hindsight that TLJ was the worst of the three movies?? All sins of Rian Johnson should have been forgotten once Ep IX got shat out onto our screens.

 

I enjoyed IX in the moment. It made no sense but I liked the characters.  The Last Jedi irritates me more every time I see anything to do with it. 

 

I also feel TLJ left IX with nowhere to go. Kylo as the big bad and no redemption, maybe. But I don't think Disney were ever going for that. 

[Mogster]

Eh? Surely Rey is the future here, not the past.  

 

The film also tried to make the point that anyone could be a Jedi, not just the Skywalker line, and Rey didn't need to have some illustrious lineage linked to the Skywalkers or anyone else.

 

I don't get the criticism of Rey being able to use the force either. It's no different from Luke managing to get it together when it counted in A New Hope, with barely any training beyond a quick session with the training sphere thing, and Rey's had more training than he did at that point.

[ZOK]

On 28/12/2020 at 02:19, Bazjam said:

The Last Jedi is easily the best Star Wars film since the original trilogy. And certainly better than The Mandalorian, which is average at best, yet you all seem to wet your pants over.

And that’s the double truth, Ruth.

 

(Except it’s not as good as Rogue One, but your point is sound).

[kensei]

Anyone could always be a Jedi. The Jedi weren't allowed kids, and Anakin was an irritating kid without a father from nowhere. Who's Obi Wan's da? Yoda's?

 

It's a point that didn't need made. If you want to move on from veering towards inherited power, don't start your new trilogy with someone of questionable parentage on an isolated planet to promote speculation. Make Ben Solo take after his da and not give a stuff about the Force.

 

Once you've done it, come up with a satisfying answer because an appreciable part of the first film in your trilogy focused on the question, and saying "No one" is the answer is so sharp you've cut yourself, and obviously going to be revisited. 

 

Luke hit a shot after some encouragement. He got beat up at the start of Empire Strikes Back by the Abominable Snowman failed multiple times with Yoda and was absolutely trashed by Vader. One thing I liked at ROS is at least Rey was challenged in a way she wasn't in the first two. 

[Hanzo the Razor]

Who the fuck bumped this shit stain of a thread?

[Mogster]

1 hour ago, kensei said:

Anyone could always be a Jedi. The Jedi weren't allowed kids, and Anakin was an irritating kid without a father from nowhere. Who's Obi Wan's da? Yoda's?

In the new trilogy, the only new Jedi we're introduced to are Kylo Ren (Son of a Skywalker), and Rey (Daughter with MYSTERIOUS PARENTS), and all the speculation was on who Rey's parents must have been. Could she be a Skywalker or a Kenobi? 

 

TLJ was making the point that you didn't need to come from exceptional families to be exceptional. You could come from nothing and achieve greatness. It was also another attempt to broaden the universe of the new movies without everything having to tie back to the OT characters. 

 

I'm not saying you need to like any of this, just that that's what the film was saying. If you still have an issue with it though, just imagine Kylo added "from a certain point of view" and everything will be fine.

[makkuwata]

13 hours ago, Harsin said:

Is he cosplaying as the fifth Doctor?

 

There's nuance. I assume it's a bad photoshop, our response also assumes that he's presenting it as such, and rolling with the joke.

 

But you can trust him to be the guy who gets the joke, then throws it out into the world.

 

I could be wrong.

[Fierce Poodle]

2 hours ago, Hanzo the Razor said:

Who the fuck bumped this shit stain of a thread?

The dead speak!

[kensei]

1 hour ago, Mogster said:

In the new trilogy, the only new Jedi we're introduced to are Kylo Ren (Son of a Skywalker), and Rey (Daughter with MYSTERIOUS PARENTS), and all the speculation was on who Rey's parents must have been. Could she be a Skywalker or a Kenobi? 

 

TLJ was making the point that you didn't need to come from exceptional families to be exceptional. You could come from nothing and achieve greatness. It was also another attempt to broaden the universe of the new movies without everything having to tie back to the OT characters. 

 

I'm not saying you need to like any of this, just that that's what the film was saying. If you still have an issue with it though, just imagine Kylo added "from a certain point of view" and everything will be fine.

 

I know what the film was saying. My issue is it didn't need said, and if you want to fix it, you need to fix TFA. 

 

Also the answer, thematically fitting or not, was shit. There's the same version of the same point that's kit shit. 

[probotector]

The biggest warning signs with the TLJ for me were the veiled Critiscm Mark Hamil kept making in interviews. He clearly sided with the fans as well and tried to be diplomatic but in group interviews you could clearly see he was uncomfortable answering questions.

 

He did come out after and reveal there were a lot of disagreements with rian but rian was a dickhead (paraphrasing).

 

I really dislike Rian and won’t be watching any more of his films. He’s an arrogant film maker without talent.

[schmojo]

Rian Johnson deserves some kind of a medal. He's given us an excellent, sonar-like tool to locate any angry middle-aged men in the vicinity.