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Star Wars: The Last Jedi

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I've got no problem people disliking the film overall, but the 1/10 scores that are yanking down the user-generated meta-scores are, obviously, bollocks.

 

I've now read a few articles that suggest that those silly scores are driven by gamergate type men railing against the strong female characters in this film. Pretty sad if true, though not surprising.

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1 hour ago, GMass said:

OK so now I've seen it for a second time...and something just clicked and I loved every moment of it.

 

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The realisation that this isnt a second film in a trilogy but rather the handing over of the flame from the old to the new.  

 

 

The Canto Bite bit and Captain Phasma *does my nut* - I think they're just genuinely prequel levels of bad (and before anyone jumps in - I *totally* get that CB bit - and I've got no problems with plans failing.  It's just a bad bit of film).

 

But but but... you've got to not view this as the wrap as the bookend of the last two trilogies.  It's a complete new beginning.  Kylo Ren isn't going to come to some demise at the end of the next film - if anything, his journey will be complete and we'll see another Trilogy with him as ultimate evil.  From that perspective, I thought this film did a great job.

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1 hour ago, GMass said:

OK so now I've seen it for a second time...and something just clicked and I loved every moment of it.

 

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The realisation that this isnt a second film in a trilogy but rather the handing over of the flame from the old to the new.  

 

But it was supposed to be, wasn’t it?* I think I’d like it more if I could detach it like that, but I wanted things to ramp up after TFA, not for them to throw every mystery away and subvert how we’re supposed to see every character. I wanted an epic trilogy.

 

If they wanted a handover film, why didn’t they do that with the first and build from there? They’ve either left the third one with too much to do to rescue it, or they’re going to throw everything away and start again, like they have with TLJ.

 

*I’m sure I read this somewhere, way back before TFA was released. I could be making it up though.

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Just back from this. I thought it was...long.

 

Spoiler

I went in more or less completely blind, having not read any reviews and only seeing the first trailer, but after TFA (which I rewatched yesterday to get me in the mood), my expectations were high. I'd be lying if I said that this met them.

 

As others have mentioned, the pacing is its biggest issue; it sacrifices tension for repetitive set pieces and ends up feeling rushed, even at 2hrs and 35mins. The bit in the middle, with the casino planet and Benico Del Toro, in particular, seemed entirely unnecessary, especially given that it did very little to advance the narrative, except perhaps to develop Finn and Rose's relationship, which I still didn't really believe in anyway. I only really started to get that special tingly Star Wars feeling towards the end, once they arrive on the salt planet, whereas with TFA I was hit with waves of it every other scene.

 

It's not a bad film, and at its worst it's still better than the prequels, but I wanted it to be a lot more special than it was.

 

Three stars from me.

 

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2 hours ago, GMass said:

OK so now I've seen it for a second time...and something just clicked and I loved every moment of it.

 

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The realisation that this isnt a second film in a trilogy but rather the handing over of the flame from the old to the new.  

 

 

Yeah but

 

Spoiler

It's still the second film in a trilogy, and it doesn't do that very well,at least. Disney didn't say "We're going to do standalone numbered Star Was films", they said "We're doing a new trilogy".

 

It's not the job of any one film to pass the baton on, it's the job of he whole trilogy. And to be honest, I don't see why passing the baton on means killing off all the main characters of the OT. Shifting the focus would be enough; characters can have good reasons to be in the background but still be about. Star Trek TNG managed to have Spock feature a few times without any real need to off him. That can be a more interesting writing challenge than just writing the big death.

 

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You, or anyone else, have no idea whether this works as the second of a trilogy until the third is released

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As much as I enjoyed TFA when it came out, I’m starting to wonder whether the biggest mistake Lucasfilm made was bringing the original cast back in the first place. Perhaps they would have been better served moving this trilogy forward in the timeline and treating the Rebellion heroes entirely as historical data. I can understand they wanted a strong box office pull, and perhaps they weren’t confident of that without the OT cast attached, but perhaps the torch didn’t need to be physically passed on by Han, Leia and Luke at all.

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1 hour ago, hub2 said:

You, or anyone else, have no idea whether this works as the second of a trilogy until the third is released

 

I suspect it's going to be similar to the first trilogy in that each of the movies are going to be very different tonally and it will take twenty years or so for the sharp corners to be rounded off and for fans to feel totally comfortable with it.

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1 hour ago, rubberducker said:

i didn’t really like TLJ as I thought it was uneven, unnecessary and narratively messy.

 

 

I loved it for the same reasons but I love Terry Gilliam movies as well and they have the same flaws as this movie. It really needs tighter editing but what would you cut out without unravelling the entire thing.

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2 hours ago, rubberducker said:

I think this whole positioning of people not liking this film to the gamersgate/ghostbusters remake/me-too is a real low from the defenders of this film.

 

 

Pulling this out seperately I think it's a long bow to paint all the people who liked it as calling people who didn't as 'gator sympathisers. I do remember from the Ghostbusters thread that there was a lot of frustration from the majority of forumites who hated the new film that they couldn't criticise it without being lumped in with that crowd.

 

I stayed away from reading any criticism of the film until after I saw it. Partly to avoid spoilers, partly to avoid creating some sort of political bias in my own head. (While I'm sure I enjoyed the new Ghostbusters on it's own merits I can't be sure some of that at the time was "if those guys hate it then I'll love it!")

 

Most of the criticism I've seen about TLJ has been pretty thoughtful and while a lot of the issues raised aren't sticking points for me I can see why they would be either from fans who are more invested or viewers who have legitimate criticisms about running time or lore issues. There's certainly a lot less of the doucebag concerns about female leads or diversity casting this time around (partly because the culture warriors have pretty much moved on from trivial concerns about movies, books and games to running the US.)

 

So while I disagree with some of the sticking points people have I do respect their points. I've only gone back 40 pages or so but I've yet to see anyone who's hated the movie here throwing their toys out of the pram.

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5 hours ago, McFly said:

Id like to know what a lightsabre feels like when you swing it. Does feel like holding a cricket/baseball bat? Or a water bottle? I assume the "blade" has no mass? 

 

I liked a take in one of the EU novels which portrayed lightsabres as pretty heavy/unwieldy, and the only reason Jedi/Sith can fight so energetically with them is that they're moving the lightsabre with the force as much as their physical bodies. 

 

This is taken from a segment where a Jedi was cut off from the force, tried to fight with his lightsabre and went a bit Frank Spencer. 

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Fantastic movie. I don’t see the criticism, just nit picking. I find that  the originals are held up by such pristine nostalgia that in many peoples eyes any new Star Wars movie is never going to match up so just sit there looking for excuses to not enjoy it. When in reality the originals were far from perfect but we didn’t give a fuck about its flaws because they were a very fun intergalactic romp. All these new Star Wars are great and kids looking at them today will fall in love with them as much as we did with the originals.

 

The prequels, they were proper pieces of shit. I’m glad I’m able to go to the cinema and see a good Star Wars movie. 

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4 hours ago, Oh Danny Boy said:

any new Star Wars movie is never going to match up so just sit there looking for excuses to not enjoy it.

 

Speaking personally, as are we all, this is bollocks.

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9 hours ago, hub2 said:

You, or anyone else, have no idea whether this works as the second of a trilogy until the third is released

 

Fair enough. Right now, I don't think it works as a TFA sequel for reasons stated 15 pages back.

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7 hours ago, Unofficial Who said:

 

I suspect it's going to be similar to the first trilogy in that each of the movies are going to be very different tonally and it will take twenty years or so for the sharp corners to be rounded off and for fans to feel totally comfortable with it.

Did it really take 20 years for fans to feel totally comfortable with the original trilogy? I loved them all from the very first time I saw them.

 

Maybe it’s my age, maybe it’s weight of expectation, maybe I need to wait for this trilogy to be complete to appreciate it as a whole, I’m not sure, but at the moment, regardless of a few amazing bits, I don’t think TFA and TLJ are as good as Star Wars and ESB.

 

I really hope that they can pull me back in with Episode IX though and that I grow to love these films the same way I do the originals. I just don’t see it at the moment, and that’s left me a little disappointed.

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Saw this again with a group of friends who had booked the tickets and the best I can muster is that it was slightly better than the prequels. A few people afterwards brought up how wooden Daisy Ridley was in it. Couldn't really disagree.

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14 hours ago, barkbat said:

, Disney are slowly killing Star Wars with overblown and stylistically confused entries into the cannon and that the audience will slowly shrink overtime. I'm certainly not nearly as fussed about the next one as I thought I'd be, and I spent most of my childhood watching the original trilogy and hunting down Kenner figures.

 

I think that might be part of it, I gave it a 5 on IMDB but really that was just because there's a decent movie here.

 

But that decent movie is at least 30 minutes and probably an hour shorter than the version released.  It tried to end about 10 times after what felt like an ending with Rey and Ren and the general's death.

 

I'd love to see a tightly edited version where I'm not praying for it to end for the last half hour.

 

Conversely, I thought Ridley was great in it.

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I really enjoyed TLJ, but I agree that it does have some fairly major flaws. Some thoughts below:

 

Spoiler

Luke - Hamill was brilliant. He just is Luke fucking Skywalker and you can tell he loves the character. RJ made some bold choices about Luke's story in the film. I understand why he went in that direction and very much enjoyed it. A part of me is disappointed, I would have loved to see him do what he said he wouldn't: face down the First Order and kick some fucking arse as a Jedi Master. Didn't mind saber throw or milking. Was not sold on considering killing Ben in his sleep.

 

Leia - No idea how they will deal with Carrie's death in the next film. Her scenes were great, although it would be easier for the story going forward if she had been the one to kamikaze in the cruiser. I have no problems with her display of hysterical force strength in flying back to the ship (other than it could have looked better). Leia is Luke's twin and would have comparable raw force potential, it's no great stretch to believe that she would be able to pull that off to save her life.

 

Kylo Rey - These were some of the best scenes of the film for me. Adam was brilliant (and huge). I didn't like Rey in TFA but she is definitely growing on me. I'm worried that Kylo isn't enough of a threat, he keeps getting his arse handed to him. 

 

Snoke - I don't really mind not getting his back story and I'm happy to read about it if a book is released. He went out like a bitch though.

 

Casino - Shit sequence. I think it is generally accepted that this was a poor section of the film. Finn/Poe should be one character. 

 

Poe - Should absolutely be executed.

 

Holdo Kamikaze - Brilliant scene. Will require some techno-babble in the next film to explain why it can't be done again. Resistance don't have Mon Cal cruisers down the back of the sofa.

 

Overall, I thought it was better than TFA. Will need to see it a few more times. I haven't read any of the new canon books, which ones explain the rise of the First Order? I'm familiar with the Imperial Remnant in the EU and imagine it is a similar situation. TBH, I wouldn't have been disappointed if they had just adapted the Thrawn trilogy, with timeline changes for the current age of the actors.

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1 hour ago, JPL said:

Did it really take 20 years for fans to feel totally comfortable with the original trilogy? I loved them all from the very first time I saw them.

 

Maybe it’s my age, maybe it’s weight of expectation, maybe I need to wait for this trilogy to be complete to appreciate it as a whole, I’m not sure, but at the moment, regardless of a few amazing bits, I don’t think TFA and TLJ are as good as Star Wars and ESB.

 

I really hope that they can pull me back in with Episode IX though and that I grow to love these films the same way I do the originals. I just don’t see it at the moment, and that’s left me a little disappointed.

 

I remember some grumbling about Ewoks for ages, especially people taking the piss out of the end song. Until it was removed, it's amazing how you can love something that's a little bit hokey.

 

For me I suspect that The Force Awakens will remain my favourite for a long time for a couple of reasons. It proved to me that there was still something of worth in Star Wars that wasn't completely strangled by lore like the prequel trilogy. And while I was always a sort of abstract supporter of diversity in casting for political reasons, the casting of Poe as a hero really bought it home to me. If I had been watching this as a kid I would have been thrilled that there was someone up there on the big screen that had the same colour skin as me cast as a hero for once. But I've talked about that before and it's a bit off topic.

 

Like you Star Wars and Empire will always be firm favourites. But I suspect that this might be because I saw them when I was between the ages of 10-13. I suspect that for a whole new generation TFA and TLJ will be their Star Wars and the older ones will be appreciated for paving the way but they won't be as important to them. It's like the Dr Who thing. I'll always love Tom Baker because he was the first Doctor I watched and it would be hard for anyone to meet the same standard in my eyes. I have friends who are older or younger who swear by John Pertwee and Peter Davison respectively.

 

Things change, just look at the tonal shifts in Star Trek alone for proof.

 

But I totally understand the disappointment. I felt that about the prequels to the point where I've never seen the third one outside it's interpretation in Lego Star Wars.

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12 hours ago, rubberducker said:

I think this whole positioning of people not liking TLJ to the gamersgate/ghostbusters remake/me-too stuff - is a real low from the defenders of this film.

 

i didn’t really like TLJ as I thought it was uneven, unnecessary and narratively messy.

 

Not because I don’t love Rey as a lead.

 

Perhaps you are reading stuff I'm not, but I haven't seen anyone saying that. I've just seen people attributing the '1/10 worst film ever' nonsense to that group. See shite like this.

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1 hour ago, Unofficial Who said:

 

I remember some grumbling about Ewoks for ages, especially people taking the piss out of the end song. Until it was removed, it's amazing how you can love something that's a little bit hokey.

WHAT?! Who took the piss out of the original end song? I’ve always loved that. The way it builds to a crescendo then blends into the main Star Wars theme was perfect. They properly ruined it when they changed it.

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23 minutes ago, Naieve said:

Holy shit, Admiral Akbar's species are called Mon Calamaris?? looooool Does that mean the pig bloke who was a guard for Jabba is a Mon TastyBacon?

 

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1 hour ago, Kzo said:

I really enjoyed TLJ, but I agree that it does have some fairly major flaws. Some thoughts below:

 

  Hide contents

Luke - Hamill was brilliant. He just is Luke fucking Skywalker and you can tell he loves the character. RJ made some bold choices about Luke's story in the film. I understand why he went in that direction and very much enjoyed it. A part of me is disappointed, I would have loved to see him do what he said he wouldn't: face down the First Order and kick some fucking arse as a Jedi Master. Didn't mind saber throw or milking. Was not sold on considering killing Ben in his sleep.

 

Leia - No idea how they will deal with Carrie's death in the next film. Her scenes were great, although it would be easier for the story going forward if she had been the one to kamikaze in the cruiser. I have no problems with her display of hysterical force strength in flying back to the ship (other than it could have looked better). Leia is Luke's twin and would have comparable raw force potential, it's no great stretch to believe that she would be able to pull that off to save her life.

 

Kylo Rey - These were some of the best scenes of the film for me. Adam was brilliant (and huge). I didn't like Rey in TFA but she is definitely growing on me. I'm worried that Kylo isn't enough of a threat, he keeps getting his arse handed to him. 

 

Snoke - I don't really mind not getting his back story and I'm happy to read about it if a book is released. He went out like a bitch though.

 

Casino - Shit sequence. I think it is generally accepted that this was a poor section of the film. Finn/Poe should be one character. 

 

Poe - Should absolutely be executed.

 

Holdo Kamikaze - Brilliant scene. Will require some techno-babble in the next film to explain why it can't be done again. Resistance don't have Mon Cal cruisers down the back of the sofa.

 

Overall, I thought it was better than TFA. Will need to see it a few more times. I haven't read any of the new canon books, which ones explain the rise of the First Order? I'm familiar with the Imperial Remnant in the EU and imagine it is a similar situation. TBH, I wouldn't have been disappointed if they had just adapted the Thrawn trilogy, with timeline changes for the current age of the actors.

 

Re: the new Canon books, the Aftermath trilogy by Chuck Wendig tell the story directly after the battle of Endor and sow the seeds of the First Order. The first book is slow, the second is really good and the third is slightly disappointing but still better than the first. Worth reading to get some of the backstory though.

 

Bloodline by Claudia Gray (Leia being the main protagonist) tells a bit more of the story too. It's a better read than Aftermath IMO. 

 

There are still gaps to be filled, and I would hope and expect more details released in novels between now and Episode IX.

 

Spoiler

I would very much like to hear more about Snoke assuming we don't get much more of his backstory in the films. 

 

I can completely understand why they haven't told his story before TLJ was released though. I have no idea if that's it for his character or not now he's been chopped up.

 

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I'd love to see a scene where Rey explains to Leia about what Luke did in the tent. I don't imagine he owned up to it before going AWOL.

 

The dialog in the film makes it seem like Snoke was hanging around before that occurred, if so what was his relationship with everyone else? 

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45 minutes ago, Naieve said:

Holy shit, Admiral Akbar's species are called Mon Calamaris?? looooool Does that mean the pig bloke who was a guard for Jabba is a Mon TastyBacon?

 

No, they’re Gamorrean. I’ll leave it up to you to decide if you think that word has origins in the word Gammon.

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Just back from seeing it. It wanted to be empire, but we got jedi by accident.

 

not a bad thing, obv, just didn't feel like a film in the midoly of a trilogy, didoly?

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