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Star Wars: The Last Jedi

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On 19/12/2017 at 22:11, JohnC said:

They were apparently in all three of the original

movies. 

Well I’ve seen the originals 50 times each at least, I’ve never noticed them

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On 20/12/2017 at 10:48, pervent aline perio grow d said:
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Finn replacing Poe would mean no Oscar Isaac, who for me is the only actor/character I liked watching in TFA and in this, not because he's a well rounded character, but because Isaac is an infinitely better actor than the rest. Maybe I just prefer the bravado, the no nonsense swash buckling approach to everything, maybe I just prefer him because he's removed from being insipid and wet and dramatically emotional. Adam Driver's conflict is well acted, Mark Hamill is grizzled and great, but the weight of their scenes is a bit wearing for the non Star Wars devotees, me at least. A Star Wars film where Oscar Isaac is in every scene would be preferable to me, he doesn't need a character arc, I wouldn't even need a plot, nothing would need to carry meaning and weight or purpose. You'd watch it and, go; yeah, enjoyed that, and that would be it.

 

re barkbat's post

Couldn’t agree with this more. Issac is the best actor in the new films by far

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On 20/12/2017 at 13:07, kensei said:

 

So either the Republic is still extant and presumably has a fuckton of ships or the New Order just took them all over. Either way the "there's only 6 people and a port left" is just confusing.

 

The Republic in disarray, the experienced military leadership pinned in and needing time for the remaining Republic fleet to regroup seems quite enough stakes. Why does the film present it as all hope being snuffed out and they have to go the Outer Rim for help?

This utterly what I don’t get. A “resistance” against whom?

 

what happened to the galaxy spanning New Republic? 

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17 minutes ago, sandman said:

This utterly what I don’t get. A “resistance” against whom?

For things to not get, that one seems a bit odd. They've only been the villains in both movies.

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Just now, JohnC said:

For things to not get, that one seems a bit odd.

But who is running things? 

 

A resistance against the New Republic? Aren’t they Leia’s mates?

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Did you totally miss the First Order, with their massive Star Destroyers and stuff?

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22 hours ago, Jackson said:

I think a good test for a good character is trying to describe them. Rey, Luke, Ren, after this movie I could go on for hours.

For Poe, all I've got is "he's a good pilot, he likes shooting things, he has a droid which he tickles"

 

I loved Poe's arc in this. I saw him as the war hero who believed he was the literal hero and started believing his own stories.

 

He's really really really good at shooting things. He's their number one pilot and by TLJ he's saved the day more than once. Which has somehow led him to believe he's immortal, a master strategist and the only one who wins the day.

 

And at the end of the day...he's really good at shooting things.

 

And that's it.

 

If there's a failing in this film compared to the last Finn and Poe don't bounce off each other in that fun way they did in TFA and without that he's just a really good military tool.

 

In the first film I'd describe him as heroic. In this?

It's all about how his high performance has led him to hubris with the result that many other people paid the price. And how until near the end he just compounds that mistake over and over in order to correct things.



 

It made for an interesting arc IMHO.

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Going to watch this again on Thursday after work. Can't wait! With a couple of weeks forum discussions I'll be looking out for a lot of things I've clearly missed the first time around! 

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36 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Did you totally miss the First Order, with their massive Star Destroyers and stuff?

Isn’t a resistance against the established government? Is that not the New Republic 

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2 minutes ago, sandman said:

Isn’t a resistance against the established government? Is that not the New Republic 

It was a resistance against what Leia saw as the coming threat, which the New Republic didn't believe in. It doesn't have to be against an established government.

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On 23/12/2017 at 20:18, Meh said:

I'd say ANH/ROTJ are about even. Empire stomps them all, of course.

It’s weird that ROJ isn’t as highly thought of as the other two nowadays. Back in the 80s we loved them all equally and saw ROJ as a brilliant end to an amazing set of films. 

 

The new view seems to have become a thing in the last 10 years or so

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On 30/12/2017 at 22:38, GMass said:

phasma

 

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What a waste - that was like boba felt dieing because of a comedy jet pack misfire....oh.  

 

I’ve got a theory that she’s going to be in every film for about two minutes before Finn apparently dispatches her, only for her to return in the next one, a bit like Kenny in South Park

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27 minutes ago, sandman said:

It’s weird that ROJ isn’t as highly thought of as the other two nowadays. Back in the 80s we loved them all equally and saw ROJ as a brilliant end to an amazing set of films. 

 

The new view seems to have become a thing in the last 10 years or so

Above all else, I think this is because we were kids when we saw it, and this was the start of Lucas’ move towards especially kid-friendly movie making. There’s nothing in ANH or Empire which is overtly this way, but Jedi saw the start of his ‘comedy burp’ phase, the ewoks doing loads of daft shit like spinning round on speeder bikes, and Han and Chewie acting like the Chuckle Brothers. Then we all got older and that side of the film isn’t as funny because we like comedy that’s more sophisticated. Don’t get me wrong, I love ROTJ, but not as much as the other two because in many ways it shows a much more childish direction, bizarrely mixed with quite adult themes like temptation, redemption and loss.

 

And the new Jabba’s Palace and end celebration songs can fuck off too.

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35 minutes ago, sandman said:

Isn’t a resistance against the established government? Is that not the New Republic 

 

Basically after the demise of the Empire it seems the First Order started to form from the remnants of the Empire in the Outer Reaches. 

 

The New Republic under the control of Mon Mothma, tired and wary of entering into conflict again had gone down a road of pacifism and massive demilitarisation after the Galactic Civil War and chose to enter treaties with the First Order and seemingly ignore the growing threat. Leia however formed the Resistance, quietly supported by those in the New Republic who shared her concerns. 

 

The events of The Force Awakens, specifically the destruction of the Hosnian system by Starkiller Base (Hosnian Prime being the planet that was hosting the senate at the time - it moved from system to system unlike the Republic prior to the Empire which was obviously based on Coruscant), are therefore the First Orders first act of war against the New Republic and attempt at taking over the galaxy. 

 

As far as I’m aware this is pretty much all the detail that’s known so far regarding the current galactic situation and is pieced together from several of the now canon books. I’m fully up to date with the books but not so much with the comics and so if anyone is aware of something I’ve missed I’d be very interested to know. 

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star-wars-cinematography.0.0.jpg

 

2 hours ago, sandman said:

Well I’ve seen the originals 50 times each at least, I’ve never noticed them

 

They're apparently only in Star Wars (ANH). Supposedly in TFA but not actually visible, according to the article below.

 

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2017/12/16/explaining-the-gold-dice-in-star-wars-the-last-jedi

 

The prominence of them in TLJ is thought

 

to be a set up for Solo.

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3 minutes ago, Orko said:

Re: Leia

 

  Hide contents

1502497134291.gif

 

 

I saw that comparison elsewhere online, to which someone replied:

 

Spoiler

Unfortunately, Leia's home planet predeceased her.

 

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On 12/31/2017 at 10:50, sprite said:

I am in the disappointed camp, mainly as I enjoyed TFA so much.  It feels very odd to swap directors for one story and not have them really talk about the direction of key plot points.  I mean it sort of makes it seem like ‘someone’ doesn’t really care what story is being told, which is daft.

 

Well what is the point of the politburo Lucasfilm Story Group/Kathleen Kennedy's gang then? Aren't they meant to be ensuring some kind of overarching vision for this new era?

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I don't think they're there to push the story in any given direction, more to ensure that there are no contradictions with what's now considered canon and to offer up advice and ideas around what existing (or things that are coming in the future in other media that they're aware of) can potentially be added into the writer / directors vision. That's my understanding of what they do anyway, from interviews etc. that I've seen.

 

For instance, I'm pretty sure that the inclusion of Saw Garrera in Rogue One was down to them. That character specifically being Saw Garrera doesn't change the story in any way I don't think, but when Gareth Edwards showed them his ideas for the story they probably thought about the characters arc in the Clone Wars and thought that rather than coming up with a new character, it being him would make an interesting addition / link. Which it does imo.

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34 minutes ago, mushashi said:

 

Well what is the point of the politburo Lucasfilm Story Group/Kathleen Kennedy's gang then? Aren't they meant to be ensuring some kind of overarching vision for this new era?

 

No idea.

 

I've read a lot of articles on the topic of Rey's parents and

 

this seems to be a main point between the two directors/writing teams that was not discussed.  JJ and co left it open, and Johnson has allegedly given an answer although there is still a definite get out clause for that for JJ in the third movie again (yes, Rey's parents were losers, but no one has excluded the possibility of her being adopted or something).  It doesn't really matter to me what the answer is; I see merit in both Rey being a "nobody" but also in a potential biological link to Ren (their connection seems a little peculiar, otherwise), but it would be nice if they could both have been on the same page for sure.  This plot point is for me disjointed between the two movies thus far.  

 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, GMass said:

I really liked 

  Reveal hidden contents

The idea that Reys parents were just normal people - i was dreading a reveal that she was Luke's love child or some such. 

 

 

I agree and think it is an important element for the main theme of the film for sure, and for the legacy going forward.

 

But the lack of continuity bugs me.  I don’t really understand why they didn’t put the same team on the three films. Or why have the same team for two out of three.

 

A trilogy of this magnitude with no source material, it’s not like Marvel (eg Avengers specifically) with so many independent stories that exist in the same universe, this is the same story.   Nor a bunch of characters who go off on another adventure (something like Star Trek), it’s the same three film long adventure that is being told by different people and I find the decision a little odd, because the characters come across a little differently.

 

I am probably just being overly fussy and cynical :lol: 

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20 minutes ago, sprite said:

 

I agree and think it is an important element for the main theme of the film for sure, and for the legacy going forward.

 

But the lack of continuity bugs me.  I don’t really understand why they didn’t put the same team on the three films. Or why have the same team for two out of three.

 

 

 I dunno, George Lucas didn't have a clue where the series was going after Star Wars, and the original trilogy turned out alright.

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1 hour ago, ahsoka said:

I don't think they're there to push the story in any given direction, more to ensure that there are no contradictions with what's now considered canon and to offer up advice and ideas around what existing (or things that are coming in the future in other media that they're aware of) can potentially be added into the writer / directors vision. That's my understanding of what they do anyway, from interviews etc. that I've seen.

 

I think that this quote from the qntm.org page that I linked to earlier in the thread sums up the filmmakers' attitude to planning ahead, at the time The Force Awakens was in development:

 

Quote

A core directive in the production of that film [The Force Awakens] was undoubtedly "Do not, do not, do not tie our hands for Episode VIII." There was no particular grand revelation in mind. Or rather, every possible grand revelation was under simultaneous consideration.

 

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Just back from our second viewing. It’s obviously different when you already know what all the surprises are, but if anything I enjoyed it even more this time.

Spoiler

Lots of the little things that seemed like niggles before are actually fully explained by what’s shown on screen (e.g. Snoke not sensing what Kylo was really up to).

 

When’s the dvd out?

Edited by gospvg
spoilers added
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Both TFA and Rogue One came in April, after December cinema releases. So maybe in or around April.

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On 29/12/2017 at 15:52, kensei said:

I thought the grumbling about Ewoks was a more recent thing? Like it took the internet to really take off. 

 

I watched the entire OT before TFA came out. I'd forgotten how good films they are - the original film surprised me. It is very tightly paced and plotted, right from the opening crawl.

 

Empire's obviously amazing from start to finish, but I don't get the ROTJ hate. It's the only one with a bit of fat in the middle, but it had a lot to do wrap things up and that last act. That space battle! That duel! Guerilla warfare against the Empire! Modern trilogies would kill for that as a last act.

Yep. ROTJ is a fuckin fantastic movie. It doesn’t put a foot wrong imho.  Ewoks are brilliant 

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34 minutes ago, K said:

Rey's parents

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being random fuck-ups was one of the best things about Last Jedi, because it seemed like a deliberate attempt to undo the creeping elitism that's been overtaking Star Wars since rhe first film. Like, in Star Wars, Luke was nobody. His dad was a skilled pilot, but he wasn't some great hero, and Luke himself was a country bumpkin from the galaxy's furthest hinterland. His journey over the film wasn't some hidden prince discovering his pre-ordained destiny - it was an ordinary person learning to fulfil their potential. 

 

Empire changed this by making Luke into the son of Darth Vader. This time round, his skill with the force and his ability to potentially topple the empire wasn't just the result of his own skill and determination - his power came from the fact that he was a descendent of a powerful man. Jedi went even further in this direction by making Leia his sister, thus making the Skywalker dynasty the most important family in the galaxy, and Phantom Menace went further still by making Luke a descendent of the force itself, through Anakin - effectively making him a deity. So within the course of four films, Luke's gone from being an everyman to being royalty, his destiny being granted by the divine right of kings, with his unheard-of *gnng* midichlorian count serving as evidence of his innate genetic superiority. It's not like this ruined the original trilogy or anything, but once it was pointed out to me, I couldn't help but feel that the films went from being very egalitarian to being very much a closed shop. If you're not descended from important people, you're not important either.

 

The Force Awakens looked like it was continuing this trajectory, with the sensible money seeming to be on Rey being Luke's daughter, but TLJ derailed this beautifully. It would have been incredibly boring to focus further on the melodrama of this dynasty of superhumans, but by making Rey a normal person with exceptional skill, they've made the whole series a bit more egalitarian. That, combined with the very last scene, is a really neat move. One of the things I liked most about TFA was Finn, in that he wasn't a superpowered prince, but a guy who used to empty the bins who succeeds through trying his hardest and not giving up. Rey was the same - she came from nothing but is every bit Kylo Renn's equal, despite him being the child of the galaxy's greatest heroes, and a descendent of Darth Vader.


That's also why I loved the very last scene so much. That kid didn't look like much and didn't have much, but he's made of the same stuff that Rey and Luke were. He's got potential, and I thought that was a great message and an absolutely magical ending for the film.

 

 

 

Hah! Great post, this.

 

Luke did have something about him in ANH I guess, even before the sequels were made, because you had Obi-Wan living near him. His father did have some relevance, and there was something shifty going on with Uncle Owen who knew more than he was letting on.

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On 31/12/2017 at 12:22, sprite said:

 

Well, it’s a personal thing for sure but for me the overwhelming memory of Rei from the film was the slow plodding middle bit on the island which I didn’t enjoy.  I agree the dynamic between her and Ren is good, and perhaps even the centrepiece of the film, but there’s something about that that still feels a little disappointing.  I’m not sure really why.  It’s like this big ensemble was built up in TFA and then just dropped.

 

I suppose that’s always the challenge of a “middle” story, though.  See also: The Two Towers!  Which makes it all the more odd to have the director change with no follow through.

 

I remember walking out of the cinema after The Two Towers with much the same feelings as I have about TLJ. Knowing that I had enjoyed it but felt disappointed and deflated for a number of reasons.

 

The Two Towers grew in my estimation on subsequent viewings so I hope TLJ will too.

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