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Star Wars: The Last Jedi


Steven
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As I also said above, the whole of The Return of the Jedi is predicated on the Emperor's shadowy machinations having lured young Luke and his allies into a trap, and it culminates in an epic showdown both on Endor and around it, and in the throne room, between father and son. I think by the time his monologues come around he would have earned a bit of pantomimery - and yet he never descends to the banality of Snoke's dialogue, which seems to be just thrown in the middle of a mish-mash of a plot which is predicated on a bunch of people being unbelievably stupid. What has Snoke got to do with anything in The Last Jedi? Not a lot as far as I can tell. He is literally just a retread of a scene in an earlier movie, done badly, without any of the context that made the original scene so rich. Which is why I am amazed that a lot of the people who seem to like The Last Jedi also seem to criticise The Force Awakens for rehashing old Star Wars tropes. 

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6 minutes ago, Tourist said:

As I also said above, the whole of The Return of the Jedi is predicated on the Emperor's shadowy machinations having lured young Luke and his allies into a trap, and it culminates in an epic showdown both on Endor and around it, and in the throne room, between father and son. I think by the time his monologues come around he would have earned a bit of pantomimery - and yet he never descends to the banality of Snoke's dialogue, which seems to be just thrown in the middle of a mish-mash of a plot which is predicated on a bunch of people being unbelievably stupid. What has Snoke got to do with anything in The Last Jedi? Not a lot as far as I can tell. He is literally just a retread of a scene in an earlier movie, done badly, without any of the context that made the original scene so rich. Which is why I am amazed that a lot of the people who seem to like The Last Jedi also seem to criticise The Force Awakens for rehashing old Star Wars tropes. 

 

I'm going to have to agree to disagree and I wouldn't neg you for having a different opinion.  The new trilogy certainly hasn't hit the heights of the OT (and to be fair, that was pretty much an impossible ask) but I REALLY can't see a fat lot of difference between the two characters, how they're introduced, their flaws etc.

 

Having seen TLJ twice now, I really enjoyed that scene and thought it was well done - each to their own I guess!

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I bumped into an old friend walking home from work this week.  Hadn’t seem him for ages, we always used to talk about films a lot so he asked me if I’d seen this.  Said I was a bit mixed about it, liked some parts, didn’t like others.  What followed was literally a 30ish minute rant from him that initially started with pretty reasonable issues with the plot, but descended more and more into bile filled insanity. Some quotes;

 

“Rey is a Mary Sue, she doesn’t need training, she can do everything already.  She only goes to Luke so they can show she’s already better than him”

”Luke Skywalker is a total cuck in this film”

”Every male character is just there to have a female character degrade them.  Every one.”

”They’re literally pissing on the Star Wars fans, like how they show you Luke’s X Wing as if it’ll be a call back to Empire Strikes Back, then don’t do anything with it, because they want the old fans to fuck off.  This isn’t a film for them and they want them to know.”

”The whole film has a feminist agenda.  You know Kathleen Kennedy? She fucking hates men.”

”It’s totally liberal propaganda, the film is very political.  The whole film is totally anti Trump”

 

It ended up with him saying they were “breaking all the rules of the canon” with the part about Reys parents, arguing that she can’t be that strong with the force unless she is either the chosen one, or comes from a strong force user bloodline because she “wouldn’t have the midochlorians” any other way.  This (and I pointed this out to him) was the same person who called midochlorians “bullshit” in the prequels.  I said I didn’t agree, and that I didn’t think any such rules had been established to the point where someone strong in the force was Rey by some other means broke canon.  This came close to resulting in an argument with him insisting that he was right, that I “prove” what I’m saying and ending with him going on about how he’d spent a lot of time watching videos about this and everything he said is “reasoned and researched” while getting angrier and angrier, to the point I ended up actually asking him if he realised how he sounded and why he was getting so angry about it.  At this point he just burst out with “it’s just a fucking SJW film! They’ve fucking ruined Star Wars.  They have, SJWs have fucking ruined Star Wars!”

 

After this we both agreed we shouldn’t talk about Star Wars with each other again.

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39 minutes ago, George Clooney said:

I bumped into an old friend walking home from work this week.  Hadn’t seem him for ages, we always used to talk about films a lot so he asked me if I’d seen this.  Said I was a bit mixed about it, liked some parts, didn’t like others.  What followed was literally a 30ish minute rant from him that initially started with pretty reasonable issues with the plot, but descended more and more into bile filled insanity. Some quotes;

 

“Rey is a Mary Sue, she doesn’t need training, she can do everything already.  She only goes to Luke so they can show she’s already better than him”

”Luke Skywalker is a total cuck in this film”

”Every male character is just there to have a female character degrade them.  Every one.”

”They’re literally pissing on the Star Wars fans, like how they show you Luke’s X Wing as if it’ll be a call back to Empire Strikes Back, then don’t do anything with it, because they want the old fans to fuck off.  This isn’t a film for them and they want them to know.”

”The whole film has a feminist agenda.  You know Kathleen Kennedy? She fucking hates men.”

”It’s totally liberal propaganda, the film is very political.  The whole film is totally anti Trump”

 

It ended up with him saying they were “breaking all the rules of the canon” with the part about Reys parents, arguing that she can’t be that strong with the force unless she is either the chosen one, or comes from a strong force user bloodline because she “wouldn’t have the midochlorians” any other way.  This (and I pointed this out to him) was the same person who called midochlorians “bullshit” in the prequels.  I said I didn’t agree, and that I didn’t think any such rules had been established to the point where someone strong in the force was Rey by some other means broke canon.  This came close to resulting in an argument with him insisting that he was right, that I “prove” what I’m saying and ending with him going on about how he’d spent a lot of time watching videos about this and everything he said is “reasoned and researched” while getting angrier and angrier, to the point I ended up actually asking him if he realised how he sounded and why he was getting so angry about it.  At this point he just burst out with “it’s just a fucking SJW film! They’ve fucking ruined Star Wars.  They have, SJWs have fucking ruined Star Wars!”

 

After this we both agreed we shouldn’t talk about Star Wars with each other again.

See, this is why you shouldn't have celebrity usernames. I read that whole thing envisioning your friend as Matt Damon getting increasingly incensed about the SJWs in The Last Jedi. 

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18 hours ago, mdn2 said:

See, this is why you shouldn't have celebrity usernames. I read that whole thing envisioning your friend as Matt Damon getting increasingly incensed about the SJWs in The Last Jedi. 

 

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I'm looking forward to seeing it again, but more as an appraisal than something I really want to see again.

 

Commonly I share the criticism that Luke deserved more.  I'm a bit cross about that, he was principled, brave and dedicated to doing the right thing.  And took leaps of faith.  I think he deserved more.

 

It's obviously fucking messy, and over time, I think it gave away more potential than it gained.

 

I think I said when I first saw it, it's impossible to make a Star Wars movie that would please everyone, but I think this one has probably failed as a film and put its functional needs (sweep out the old stuff, get ready for the future) above its Star Wars-ish-ness.

 

Just because idiots (like that case of the old friend above) don't like it, doesn't make them entirely wrong.

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1 hour ago, Bucky said:

I'm looking forward to seeing it again, but more as an appraisal than something I really want to see again.

 

Commonly I share the criticism that Luke deserved more.  I'm a bit cross about that, he was principled, brave and dedicated to doing the right thing.  And took leaps of faith.  I think he deserved more.

There was an interview with Rian Johnson, I forget if it was Empire or Slashfilmcast, where he said he spent ages trying to work out how to write Luke. It sounded like he felt painted into a corner by JJ Abrams and this was the only way he could reconcile Luke not helping or doing anything when Han died. 

 

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And then killed him off mainly as a ‘fuck you’ to JJ as he handed the franchise back? :P It still seems completely mental that there wasn’t an overall story arc for the trilogy planned out, rather than absolute freedom for two different directors :s 

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7 hours ago, oli said:

There was an interview with Rian Johnson, I forget if it was Empire or Slashfilmcast, where he said he spent ages trying to work out how to write Luke. It sounded like he felt painted into a corner by JJ Abrams and this was the only way he could reconcile Luke not helping or doing anything when Han died. 

 

 

I'm sure your explanation is accurate but it's also absolute piffle.  Maybe Luke was building or working towards something greater.  Sacrificing Han and Leia.  Honouring what they fight for.  

 

In Empire, Yoda gives him that exact advice.

 

All J J left the director with was "an older Like holding a light saber".

 

Anyway, it's pointless.  I've become one of those internet people arguing about Star Wars on a games forum.

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9 hours ago, MrPogo said:

And then killed him off mainly as a ‘fuck you’ to JJ as he handed the franchise back? :P It still seems completely mental that there wasn’t an overall story arc for the trilogy planned out, rather than absolute freedom for two different directors :s 

With the second director obviously hating everything the first director did and using his time with the series as a tool in some kind of childish one-upmanship. It’s so obvious Johnson wasn’t happy with J.J.’s direction and wanted to show that to everyone. At least he had his fun, but it left a messy second entry for a lot of the fans.

 

Even it there wasn’t a story arc in place, then they could have at least got directors that were heading in the same direction.

 

It’ll be interesting to see how J.J. handles Episode IX and if we get another 180° or whether he goes with what Johnson has left him.

 

I know they’ve made plenty of money on it, but I wonder how Disney see this. Will J.J. be told to get things back on track? Will Johnson still be getting his own trilogy?

 

I’m looking forward to seeing it again, just to see if my initial feelings about it are right. I’m also looking forward to seeing how all this gets concluded in Episode IX.

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Given that they had no hesitation building upon audiences' previous understanding of what could be done with The Force (the projection stuff mainly, but also the way Yoda was able to influence the living world around him with the lightning strike), I think there are probably no limits to where they could go from here. I'm not saying this is what I'd want to see, but Luke could very easily be brought back in Episode IX in a major role as a far more active Force ghost than anything we've seen so far. Actually I would quite like to see that, now that I've thought it up.

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59 minutes ago, Treble said:

I'm pretty sure he will be. Now Han's dead as a character and Carrie's gone in real life, Mark/Luke's more important to round off the story of the OT characters than ever.

 

Indeed. Given Carrie’s death I’m kind of surprised Disney didn’t insist Luke was left alive at the end of the movie, even if just in a “that massive display of Force power burnt it out of him” capacity or something so he could more slide into Leia’s role.

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