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The PS4 architecture isn't unique. It's just x86 (which developers are super used to) on fast share RAM (which developers are used to). Sony's big development pitch was that it was super ordinary.

The PS4 architecture isn't unique. It's just x86 (which developers are super used to) on fast share RAM (which developers are used to). Sony's big development pitch was that it was super ordinary.

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1 hour ago, Shimmyhill said:

Coulda stopped there really, not sure how the PS4.5 will scale unless it has the same architectures as the PS4 but more fastererer as its pretty unique?!?

 

???

 

Both the Xbox One and PS4 are on x86 architecture now... they're cut-price PCs in under the telly form-factor. Their whole technical direction is intended to avoid esoteric custom designs. 

 

EDIT: What Alex W. said.

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1 hour ago, Uzi Temp said:

With all due respect, I'd only accept the impact of two fixed targets from an actual dev. Overall it is underselling how talented most teams are when you get plenty of well performing multiplatform games over PS4/Xbox One and the huge variety of PC builds to cater for. I wouldn't count on one extra fixed system on similar architecture to cause such a huge issue.

 

 

Hopefully, Sony's underlying framework accounts for faster hardware so that smaller devs don't need to worry about buying PS4K kits.

1 hour ago, Uzi Temp said:

With all due respect, I'd only accept the impact of two fixed targets from an actual dev. Overall it is underselling how talented most teams are when you get plenty of well performing multiplatform games over PS4/Xbox One and the huge variety of PC builds to cater for. I wouldn't count on one extra fixed system on similar architecture to cause such a huge issue.

 

 

Hopefully, Sony's underlying framework accounts for faster hardware so that smaller devs don't need to worry about buying PS4K kits.

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2 hours ago, PhilG said:

But PC devs don't test their games on every single hardware configuration, do they?

 

A good PC dev will test their games on as many configurations as they feel will give them a good range of options. I'm pretty sure I've seen footage of The Witcher running on about 8 vastly different PCs and Monitors just to check over things like performance, details, framerates, HUD layouts, colouring etc.

 

A PC dev that doesn't care won't, hence the wonderfully variable experience that is PC gaming. PC gaming is well shit.

 

Consoles have one fixed platform to check (I understand Bungie still did some of the monitoring/TV HUD checking on the Halo games) and also the platform holder will run through a bunch of usability/crashing tests too. I don't think one extra platform would be too much of an issue, but it's still extra work isn't it.

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2 hours ago, Alex W. said:

The PS4 architecture isn't unique. It's just x86 (which developers are super used to) on fast share RAM (which developers are used to). Sony's big development pitch was that it was super ordinary.

The PS4 architecture isn't unique. It's just x86 (which developers are super used to) on fast share RAM (which developers are used to). Sony's big development pitch was that it was super ordinary.

 

Isn't that fast ram architecture pretty unique or is it just fast ram?

 

If just fast ram then scaling sounds like it would be easy enough.

2 hours ago, Alex W. said:

The PS4 architecture isn't unique. It's just x86 (which developers are super used to) on fast share RAM (which developers are used to). Sony's big development pitch was that it was super ordinary.

The PS4 architecture isn't unique. It's just x86 (which developers are super used to) on fast share RAM (which developers are used to). Sony's big development pitch was that it was super ordinary.

 

Isn't that fast ram architecture pretty unique or is it just fast ram?

 

If just fast ram then scaling sounds like it would be easy enough.

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It's certainly unusual for a console to have that much memory of that high a speed, but it's just a difference of degrees. Developers will know how to handle it.

It's certainly unusual for a console to have that much memory of that high a speed, but it's just a difference of degrees. Developers will know how to handle it.

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Gaf going crazy over the last hour about some supposed reliable source having been briefed on the spec of the PS4K today. 2xGPU power of PS4, better CPU, upscaling, games in dev for the 4K, including GOW4, Deep Down and GT Sport, with PS4 versions of these being significantly downgraded, and also PS4K better for PSVR. Aiming Q1 2017 supposedly, priced $399 or $499 dependent on which CPU option they go with.

 

Still don't buy it, but Gaf believes.

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It's just crazy. You get a brilliantly designed VR device to market with a huge customer base ready to buy into it, you price it significantly cheaper than the competition while still making a profit, and you tout the benefits of developing for one closed system along with the unrivaled potential for optimisation, AND THEN YOU DEVELOP ANOTHER CONSOLE TO RUN IT SIGNIFCANTLY BETTER WITH EXCLUSIVE SOFTWARE THAT COSTS $500 AND COMES OUT SIX MONTHS LATER.

 

This is almost Microsoft Kinect TV level stupid.

 

I can only conclude that 1) PS4 cannot run PSVR to a level that Sony are satisfied with beyond a limited tech-demoish launch window. 2) Microsoft has done some deal with Facebook that will allow some kind of synergy between the Rift and Win10/Xbox that will form the backbone of some console imminent in 2017.

It's just crazy. You get a brilliantly designed VR device to market with a huge customer base ready to buy into it, you price it significantly cheaper than the competition while still making a profit, and you tout the benefits of developing for one closed system along with the unrivaled potential for optimisation, AND THEN YOU DEVELOP ANOTHER CONSOLE TO RUN IT SIGNIFCANTLY BETTER WITH EXCLUSIVE SOFTWARE THAT COSTS $500 AND COMES OUT SIX MONTHS LATER.

 

This is almost Microsoft Kinect TV level stupid.

 

I can only conclude that 1) PS4 cannot run PSVR to a level that Sony are satisfied with beyond a limited tech-demoish launch window. 2) Microsoft has done some deal with Facebook that will allow some kind of synergy between the Rift and Win10/Xbox that will form the backbone of some console imminent in 2017.

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Quote

Related info from a meeting we had yesterday was waiting for it to be approved before posting.

Price is currently $399.99 they were discussing a better CPU which would raise the price to $499.99 we were guaranteed the price will be no higher than $499.99 (He mentioned the CPU upgrade quite a bit almost as if they haven't really decided on a final spec could be a pricing issue.) also there is currently no plan for any type of trade in program for current PS4 users but that could change. 

They stated that the GPU is twice as powerful as standard PS4 and much faster. They did not say exactly how fast but that is was running at a higher clock speed while being much smaller than the original. 

It will have a 4k blu ray player and will upscale games that are not natively 4k. 

Also there was talk of some sort of VR lounge for the media player app which is supposed to be getting a substantial upgrade. 

It was stated plainly and with no room for interpretation that there are developers that already have development kits for the PS4K and that they are making games that will directly target and take advantage of the higher specs of the PS4K. It was also stated that these games will in fact work for the PS4 but with considerable sacrifices made to performance. 

It was also made very clear that current games would not be getting any type of performance upgrades by being played on the system and any benefits to older games would come via patch per game and per developer. When asked if this was going to happen the response was "Its a possibility but doubtful with the exception of a handful of games." 
We were also given a list of games that will be available at launch that will directly take advantage of the PS4K where the differences are and I will quote him "Significant."

For the PSVR

Eve Valkyrie 
Robinson 
GT Sport

For the PS4K

Deep Down (Thought this was dead)
GOW4 (This was the exact abbreviation on the sheet I can only assume its god of war 4)

There were more games on the list but these are the ones that stood out to me. 



That's all I can remember off the top of my head I'll see if I can get any more information.

The Gaf quote in full.

 

 

If they remaster the console does this mean we'll see remastered remasters ?

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It's all ok guys because it's Sony. I know they stole this idea off MS, which makes them cool by proxy, but surely this won't happen, right? I mean, Sony are well know for their sensitive handling of customers, and their huge financial gain with the PS4 has really solidified that. What could go wrong? Well, nothing, if the audience they've already captured is anything to go by.

 

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you abuse the neg system... Fire away, my pretties...

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Yeah it seemed for a moment as though publishers finally ran out of middling 4 year old games to cheaply re-release as 'definitive editions' and 'remasters' instead of making new games.  They can start the whole process again! 

 

I am really jaded with the big budget end of this industry, 

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17 hours ago, PhilG said:

But PC devs don't test their games on every single hardware configuration, do they?

 

No they don't and look at the wonderful situation on THAT platform!

 

Edit: Seriously guys? We all too often hear of people saying "don't go AMD, go NVidia" due to the difference in performance or glitches from one game to the next.  I could hapily quote people on rllmuk being advised to go "windowless/borderless mode" to fix other issues etc etc etc.  Lots of different hardware configs causes lots of different issues.  It's a given that PC's gamers have to tweak to get the best out of their gaming.

 

negs.PNG

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It was also made very clear that current games would not be getting any type of performance upgrades by being played on the system and any benefits to older games would come via patch per game and per developer. When asked if this was going to happen the response was "Its a possibility but doubtful with the exception of a handful of games." 
We were also given a list of games that will be available at launch that will directly take advantage of the PS4K where the differences are and I will quote him "Significant."

 

That's pretty fucked up if true.

So it's likely we ARE going to get some games targeted at PS4K as the lead platform (so the console I have invested in gets dicked over 2/3 years into its life) and I'll also get the joy of being able to play games significantly downgraded from their PS4K counterparts.

It also means that while devs patch up their existing games to play at 4K there will be time and effort that is spent on those rather than patching bug fixes or other stuff for the base game.

Oh and I also am now pretty sure that if I buy PSVR I'll have to buy a new console as well to get the most of it.  It's still the cheapest VR option but it pretty much just doubled in price in my eyes.

 

Seriously guys.  I know Sony have knocked the ball out of the park with the PS4 but fucking hell this move sucks dick!

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On 02/03/2016 at 0:13 PM, rafaqat said:

This, IF they go with the incremental XboxOne upgrade path will end up like how Steam machines should have gone.  A fixed hardware spec per "tier".   All machines running the same software, the higher the spec the better the res or framerate.   

 

If MS mandate SOME sort of quality bar for the lowest tier then I have no problem.  

 

Hopefully the comments on an upgraded XboxOne is more about the fact that they're talking about the next one just being automatically backward compatible and the current XBoxOne having a longer shelf life as games release in 5 years time automatically dial down the graphics to be able to run on the original bone.  So more of a "games in the future will run on hardware of the past and downgrade down to the device" as well as "games written using now using the framework will be ready to up the res/framerate if they run on the newest hardware"

 

I'd prefer that they didn't go the incremental upgrade route.  I like the fact I can invest in a console and then forget about hardware for at least the next 5 years.

It's great to know that the next machine WILL run XboxOne games and some of them will automatically run better rather than needing a "remastered" edition rebuying.

 

I think if MS communicate this properly it's a great thing.  If communicate like they did at XboxOne launch then it's going to be a fuckfest.

 

 

?

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4 hours ago, El Spatula said:

 

 

?

 

 

Quote

I'd prefer that they didn't go the incremental upgrade route.  I like the fact I can invest in a console and then forget about hardware for at least the next 5 years.

 

 

Thought I'd pick out the relevant bit for you hun.   I want a long console lifecycle.  If the next one IN FIVE YEARS can upres my current library then that's sweet.  3 years though?  Get fucked!  Too soon!

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I get the impression the main reason they are going ahead with this is because the current hardware isn't strong enough to offer what they want to achieve with the VR unit. Seems very ballsy to say here's a £350+ accessory but you'll need to spend another potential £400+ on a new system to get the full experience.

 

How many people are all in at £750+ ?

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3 minutes ago, Revival said:

I get the impression the main reason they are going ahead with this is because the current hardware isn't strong enough to offer what they want to achieve with the VR unit. Seems very ballsy to say here's a £350+ accessory but you'll need to spend another potential £400+ on a new system to get the full experience.

 

How many people are all in at £750+ ?

 

For that much I'd be tempted to go back to my PC & buy the rift when it drops in price.

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Well, downloadable games it might.

 

And while Jons stuck his neck out, I think the difference between this thread and the Microsoft one is interesting, that one was "makes sense for them" and this one is all "fuck off". I mean, that's probably down to people not actually thinking it made sense for Microsoft, but maybe enjoying having another stick to beat them with and this thread is there true feelings, but yeah, bit odd.

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5 hours ago, Jon said:

It's all ok guys because it's Sony. I know they stole this idea off MS, which makes them cool by proxy, but surely this won't happen, right? I mean, Sony are well know for their sensitive handling of customers, and their huge financial gain with the PS4 has really solidified that. What could go wrong? Well, nothing, if the audience they've already captured is anything to go by.

 

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you abuse the neg system... Fire away, my pretties...

 

You're such a fucking dickhead. 

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The bit I don't buy from that gaf quote boozy posted is that at the same time as saying the final specs haven't been decided upon they're saying that devs have been given and are developing games on PS4K Dev kits. Can't have it both ways. 

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2 hours ago, macosx said:

poor Jon. He wants his ideas back from bad mans at Sony.

What a massive bunch of bastards they are for trying to progress things.

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1 hour ago, Revival said:

I get the impression the main reason they are going ahead with this is because the current hardware isn't strong enough to offer what they want to achieve with the VR unit.

That's the popular thinking, but I don't believe it is the primary goal. My hunch is the Sony businessfolk want two things from this:

  • 4K BluRay support, with all that high dynamic range stuff etc, to sell more 4K TVs (synergy!).
  • A 'premium' PS4 unit to sell at a higher price to those who want the best; that would then support lowering the price on the base PS4 without eroding overall costs. Tiered pricing strategies is straight out of Microeconomics 101.

Games consoles have messed around with the second strategy (e.g. Xbox 360 Core vs the one with a hard drive; various limited edition bundles) but as long as 90% of the machine is a fixed spec there's very little room to introduce meaningful pricing tiers. If you can vary the base spec, then it looks more attractive as a strategy. Moving Xbox One and PS4 to nearly standard x86 architectures opens up that possibility.

 

If I'm right, then the difference between PS4k and PS4 will only be large enough to justify a higher price on the hardware to 'core' gamers [1]. Splitting the software market would be a bad idea, for all the reasons discussed above, so full compatibility across the two devices would be critical; Sony would want future games to have two render targets. Buy a PS4k, get better looking games for free (because all your current games work.) Buy a PS4, get the same experiences but with somewhat reduced graphics. The PS4 would hang around at a lower price, I think, which is another reason that the two consoles have to be as similar as possible for games devs to target.

 

One of Digital Foundary's scenarios was something like a 2x bump in GPU power with working backwards compatibility with PS4 titles. This has the intriguing notion that with twice the GPU grunt, you could (presumably?) render VR games at current-PS4-levels, as opposed to the somewhat degraded visuals we seem to be getting with PSVR as it has been shown so far. But, importantly, it's not night and day difference; all existing games (VR and normal) should still work on the older hardware. It's certainly not going to be putting out games at 4K [2]. I wonder if Sony actually see that as a goal; that the difference is a nice-but-not-essential upgrade. Make it too good, make that upgrade too essential, and the cheaper old PS4 becomes too hard a sell; existing customers are annoyed and the two-tier strategy is out of the window. So the gap between the two consoles has to be finely judged.

 

[1] I don't much like this term but there's not a lot better.

[2] That's going to be impossible for a games console for several years yet. It's just too many pixels. Citation: behemoth 4k gaming PCs.

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