Xbox One X

[jonamok]

Should ask Edge if they can call it

THE FXXK

[TehStu]

19 minutes ago, Fully Aspel said:

That said, I really don't understand Microsoft's thinking and plans for all of this at all. "Why's that?" most of you are probably not thinking. Go on then, I'll tell you anyway!  

 

The rest of your argument went on to describe what would happen in a clear generational divide, which isn't necessarily true now. Yes, PS4 has twice the numbers out there, but if Scoprio goes on to be the base model of the "next generation", that's where things get interesting. The Xbox appears to have the framework to permit that.

 

Anyway, you're absolutely right of course - if you don't want an Xbox, you don't want this, but I'm not 100% sure that was ever the point of it, much like the Pro.

[rafaqat]

4 hours ago, Down by Law said:

 

" The first and only console to enable True 4K Gaming" - isn't it checkerboarding again? Not quite the Native 4K monster they made it out to be, is it

 

Its almost like you've not read ANY of the DF article.  It does native 4K. DF has seen software running on it. MS have said the likes of Forza 7 with be 4K. 

Devs can choose to use checker boarding if they want. They can choose to stick to 1080p if they want. They can go native 4K if they want. It's great that MS have said that they're going to give Devs the flexibility to do what they want with their games.  

[footle]

So pretty much what we expected then: both the digital foundry article and the reaction in this thread.

 

pretty much kills any desire I have for a Pro. Switch in the next couple of months, 4K tv, Scorpio in November to piss around in HDR in my living room without having to move my PC about.

 

(But I'd expect £499, and it would still be less than my last graphics card)

[HarryBizzle]

31 minutes ago, clippa said:

 

Totally agree with this. Even playing on m/kb with my nose pressed up to a 27" monitor, there's no need to go over 1080p in my opinion.

 

I have a 25" monitor and the difference between 1080p and 1440p is night and day.

[rafaqat]

Quote

 

What Goossen described as the 'emulation' approach is seen in PS4 Pro's design. Sony's latest console uses a 'butterfly' approach to GPU design, effectively mirroring the base unit's GPU with an extra rank of 18 compute units, doubling power (more so once extra frequency is added). With this approach, Sony can ensure complete compatibility simply by turning off the additional, new 'half' of the graphics core. It's an elegant solution, but what's clear is that the newly introduced boost mode doesn't deliver the Pro's full power to existing base PS4 titles.

Microsoft has taken the harder route - and it has done so by necessity. It doesn't have the option of doubling up on its existing design, as Scorpio is a radical architectural overhaul. Here, it's down to the platform holder to take ownership of compatibility issues, but the advantage is this: unlike PS4's boost mode, Scorpio theoretically allows for the full power of the new console to be deployed on older games. 

 

 

My body is ready.  

[Stanley]

31 minutes ago, TehStu said:

 Yes, PS4 has twice the numbers out there, but if Scoprio goes on to be the base model of the "next generation", that's where things get interesting. The Xbox appears to have the framework to permit that.

This model has one big pitfall imo. You're never using the full potential of the console until the next one comes out. 

 

Scorpio comes out 2017 and is considerably more powerful than the original Xbox One or Xbox One S. So conceivably they could make games for it straight away, if they chose, that wouldn't run on the original base hardware. But they won't because they need to ensure that the original model is still the lead platform and all games run on it. So the Scorpio is being held back deliberately until they reach a point where they draw a line in the sand and decide that Scorpio is the new base model. Say that point is 2020. But then Scorpio is already three years old. So we've waited three years before it can start to realise its true potential. But then another more powerful model arrives too at that point and the cycle continues - the potential of the hardware is never realised until a point in time where it's already considered dated.

 

I think this is why Mark Cerny has talked about PS4 and PS4 Pro being of the same generation, so that when PS5 comes along they can start making use of the extra power anyway they want to, straight away, without worrying about forwards compatibility.

[TehStu]

True, perhaps it's simply iPhone's S model. See there in raf's quote, though. It's completely different architecture, which means this "Xbox as a service" guff actually works. 360/Bone titles running on the proper next generation Xbox?

[rafaqat]

1 minute ago, sir shrew said:

 

I mock MS, but this is all really good.

 

The Scorpio seems like the console the PS4 Pro should've been. The problem MS have is that the Scorpio will be expensive, probably £500, and it arrives 4 years into the generation at a time when MS are struggling with their software line-up. Scorpio versions of Halo, Gears and Horizon just won't cut it. They will have the edge on third-party software for 2-3 years, for a premium, but by 2019/20 the PSV will be upon us.

 

If they're finally ready to compete on VR that could swing it, they have a more powerful system, they could launch later with a more refined and user-friendly experience... but for the fact this would inevitably push the cost into the £700-800 region, and out of commercially viability.

 

I think MS are in big trouble.The kind of people that would be swayed by a Scorpio for graphical fidelity over their existing PS titles will either already own an MS system or will be those wealthy enough to jump away from the Scorpio at the next shiny new console, be it PSV or a commercially successful VR system or whatever. By which I mean, I don't see Scorpio selling 360 numbers anytime soon because I'm not convinced 4K/HDR TV sets will penetrate the market as deeply as they'd like.

 

The diminishing returns from incremental console upgrades, as with incremental resolution bumps to televisions, only solidifies my opinion that VR is the next big leap for this industry, regardless of PSVR flopping out the gate. I imagine Sony are already hard at work integrating that into what will be PSV.

 

 

 

They just need to keep on building good hardware and trying to get more new IP out. 2019/2020 is a long way away.  They've got the most powerful console by quite a margin till then. At that point, we can all get back on the merry go round of bestest/fastest again.  Not sure where to go next after 4K though.  What will Sony offer with their net console other than not have rely on checkerboarding any more. So they have True 4K eventually in 2020. Is there any point going to 8K at that point?  Are we going to be told that 120fps is the new 60fps? So I think on that front we might have reached a plateau for a while and xbox will have been there for at least 3 years already.

 

Also, I'm still not sure VR is ever going to go mainstream unless the headsets get much much smaller and much cleverer with the whole eye tracking/foveated rendering tech.  Once foveated rendering comes in the compute power needed for VR comes down meaning the Scorpion is probably fine for whatever VR experiences get created for the next few year.

MS have let other manufacturers duke that out too which I think is probably the right thing to do right now until someone comes up with something a little friendlier than what we have now. We're already getting headsets being demo'd that range in price from as low as $200. 

[Vin]

Oh man, RDR2 will look godly on this. A new 55" and some Bourbon and I'll be set and ready. I absolutely emplore the bods at MS to release a decent headset alongside it though. 

[rafaqat]

5 minutes ago, Stanley said:

This model has one big pitfall imo. You're never using the full potential of the console until the next one comes out. 

 

Scorpio comes out 2017 and is considerably more powerful than the original Xbox One or Xbox One S. So conceivably they could make games for it straight away, if they chose, that wouldn't run on the original base hardware. But they won't because they need to ensure that the original model is still the lead platform and all games run on it. So the Scorpio is being held back deliberately until they reach a point where they draw a line in the sand and decide that Scorpio is the new base model. Say that point is 2020. But then Scorpio is already three years old. So we've waited three years before it can start to realise its true potential. But then another more powerful model arrives too at that point and the cycle continues - the potential of the hardware is never realised until a point in time where it's already considered dated.

 

I think this is why Mark Cerny has talked about PS4 and PS4 Pro being of the same generation, so that when PS5 comes along they can start making use of the extra power anyway they want to, straight away, without worrying about forwards compatibility.

 

This ignores the whole dynamic resolution techniques that MS have been recommending for a while now.  900p-1080p on xbox One.  Same game given more power on Scorpio can render at 1440p-4K with no code changes. 

 

I can imagine on a Scorpio it also picks up the 4K textures if they chose to go that way. 

You can even decide on how many poly's your models use based on available power. 

 

There are many many things you can do to make your game scalable if you plan in future power. MS have given game devs plenty of notice and advice on the software front. I'm confident they've chosen the right approach here and if game devs plan that in at the start they're in a great position to get an almost free upgrade when Scorpio hits.   There's no need to build your game and essentially hardcode it for running on Xbox One thereby holding it back on Scorpio.  It's good engineering practice to not hard code stuff. 

 

[TehStu]

1 minute ago, rafaqat said:

There are many many things you can do to make your game scalable if you plan in future power. MS have given game devs plenty of notice and advice on the software front. I'm confident they've chosen the right approach here and if game devs plan that in at the start they're in a great position to get an almost free upgrade when Scorpio hits.   There's no need to build your game and essentially hardcode it for running on Xbox One thereby holding it back on Scorpio.  It's good engineering practice to not hard code stuff. 

So, stupid question, but isn't that what they've essentially done with the PC versions of Microsoft titles? Those Play Anywhere ones. I assume it's essentially the same game, just allowed to scale to whatever the hardware is/options selected.

[Stanley]

The point I was making still stands @rafaqat developers do not have the freedom to use the power anyway they see fit. 

 

You could make a game with more advanced geometry and physics on Scorpio that would absolutely fall apart on a base Xbox One. So you're always tempering your ambition by scaling things back to run on old hardware.

[rafaqat]

Just now, TehStu said:

So, stupid question, but isn't that what they've essentially done with the PC versions of Microsoft titles? Those Play Anywhere ones. I assume it's essentially the same game, just allowed to scale to whatever the hardware is/options selected.

 

Pretty much. Getting Forza/Halo stuff/Gears etc to be play anywhere has been partly a test run for those dev teams and somewhere for MS to try all this stuff out before the Scorpio hits. They've had teething issues which isn't unexpected but it's good that they're trying it out now and working out the kinks.

[rafaqat]

8 minutes ago, Stanley said:

The point I was making still stands @rafaqat developers do not have the freedom to use the power anyway they see fit. 

 

You could make a game with more advanced geometry and physics on Scorpio that would absolutely fall apart on a base Xbox One. So you're always tempering your ambition by scaling things back to run on old hardware.

 

No. What I'm saying is you make your game scalable. As more power is available to you, you scale your geometry/resolution UP.   There's a base level you always stick to and that's the Xbox One.  When you detect you have more grunt available the game engine adjusts. All dynamically done on the fly.   This is why they can say that the XboxOne won't be left behind as well be able to use the power of the Scorpio.

 

I'm sure we will get to a place one day in a few years where someone wants to build something completely out there and they decide that the Xbox One isn't powerful enough but that's going to be years away.  Also, what kind of game would it be?   What games do we have right now that wouldn't be able to be realised on Xbox 360 and Ps3 with the appropriate graphical downgrade?  I can't think of any.  So I don't think we're going to see anything soon that is held back by Xbox One. 

 

 

[Down by Law]

54 minutes ago, rafaqat said:

 

Its almost like you've not read ANY of the DF article.  It does native 4K. DF has seen software running on it. MS have said the likes of Forza 7 with be 4K. 

Devs can choose to use checker boarding if they want. They can choose to stick to 1080p if they want. They can go native 4K if they want. It's great that MS have said that they're going to give Devs the flexibility to do what they want with their games.  

 

The Last of Us Remastered run at native 4K on a Pro and scales down accordingly depending on TV / the software rendering you choose from the option menu. All I'm saying is, when the Scorpio was announced they gave the impression all games would be able to be run natively at 4K 'the only true 4K gaming console' and that isn't what they are saying today. 

 

It's no different from what Sony are already letting devs do with the Pro

[Stanley]

Yes I get all that but the being the 'base level' is on dated hardware. 

 

Put it another way. Perhaps Crackdown 3 could do all those fancy physics calculations natively without the use of cloud computing. But it won't because it needs to run on the original model. The game is fundamentally designed around what's possible on old hardware.

 

If MS go that way, and we don't know if they will, but Sony make PS5 games incompatible on PS4 Pro, then PS5 games could be way more advanced than the Xbox equivalent.

 

Edit @rafaqat

[footle]

1 minute ago, Down by Law said:

 

The Last of Us Remastered run at native 4K on a Pro and scales down accordingly depending on TV / the software rendering you choose from the option menu. All I'm saying is, when the Scorpio was announced they gave the impression all games would be able to be run natively at 4K 'the only true 4K gaming console' and that isn't what they are saying today. 

 

It's no different from what Sony are already letting devs do with the Pro

 

Except... automatic downscaling to 1080p for supersampling; ability to choose at the system level. Neither PS Pro features.

 

also, improved 360 emulation for all games; improved bone games, for all games and not just those with dynamic scaling: I don't really think any of us were expecting that.

[rafaqat]

Just now, Down by Law said:

 

The Last of Us Remastered run at native 4K on a Pro and scales down accordingly depending on TV / the software rendering you choose from the option menu. All I'm saying is, when the Scorpio was announced they gave the impression all games would be able to be run natively at 4K 'the only true 4K gaming console' and that isn't what they are saying today. 

 

It's no different from what Sony are already letting devs do with the Pro

 

There was the E3 announce where it seemed that's what they'd said.  Phil Spencer corrected that the next day and it was widely reported at the time.  It's never been expected to run ALL games at Native 4K.  They're always said they'd give devs the option to run at 4K or do 1080p and use the power elsewhere. They've said for a long time that MS First party titles would target Native 4K Don't make me hunt down quotes from that E3 period.

 

[Revival]

7 minutes ago, Down by Law said:

 

The Last of Us Remastered run at native 4K on a Pro and scales down accordingly depending on TV / the software rendering you choose from the option menu. All I'm saying is, when the Scorpio was announced they gave the impression all games would be able to be run natively at 4K 'the only true 4K gaming console' and that isn't what they are saying today. 

 

It's no different from what Sony are already letting devs do with the Pro

 

The Last of Us is a game with it's roots in the PS3 era, The Scorpio is going to be running newly developed current gen games at 4k. That's a huge difference.

[rafaqat]

3 minutes ago, Stanley said:

Yes I get all that but the being the 'base level' is on dated hardware. 

 

Put it another way. Perhaps Crackdown 3 could do all those fancy physics calculations natively without the use of cloud computing. But it won't because it needs to run on the original model. The game is fundamentally designed around what's possible on old hardware.

 

If MS go that way, and we don't know if they will, but Sony make PS5 games incompatible on PS4 Pro, then PS5 games could be way more advanced than the Xbox equivalent.

 

Edit @rafaqat

 

aha right.  Yeah.  Gotcha.  Interesting question really.  On PC's at one point you could get hardware cards that did physics calculation for you. Games used them if you had them and had nicer stuff going on that front and they used software for something a little more basic if you didn't have the cards.   So it's possible to "downscale" the physics calculations too.  I think that sort of stuff on hardware is now built into modern GPU's.

 

Yeah if there is a complete break then sure the devs have complete freedom. I don't think anyone other than Nintendo would try that nowadays though.  Having people locked into your ecosystem is a big thing for loyalty. 

[Down by Law]

Alright then, Rise of the Tomb Raider and Infinite Warfare both run native 4K. "Try Again"

[Wallace]

8 minutes ago, rafaqat said:

 

There was the E3 announce where it seemed that's what they'd said.  Phil Spencer corrected that the next day and it was widely reported at the time.  It's never been expected to run ALL games at Native 4K.  They're always said they'd give devs the option to run at 4K or do 1080p and use the power elsewhere. They've said for a long time that MS First party titles would target Native 4K Don't make me hunt down quotes from that E3 period.

 

 

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/xbox-one-scorpio-wont-make-4k-mandatory-devs-could/1100-6441045/ 

 

One of the bigger news stories to come from E3 was the announcement of Microsoft's Project Scorpio, a more powerful Xbox One that can run games at 4K resolution. However, Xbox head Phil Spencer has since said that he won't make it mandatory for every game to run at 4K.

When asked on Twitter if developers can instead go for 1080p with 60 frames per second and "massively upgraded visuals," Spencer replied, "We'll talk more about this later, but we never said we'd mandate 4K frame buffer, we won't."

Spencer spoke about the subject last week on GameSpot sister site Giant Bomb's Live at E3 show, where he said letting developers do what they want is something he supports.

"We'll absolutely be open to that," Spencer said. "I think creative freedom and how you want to use the power of the box is something that I always support. I came from first party, as you guys know, so putting the right tools in the hands of the creators, the best creators, is our job as the platform.

[Down by Law]

I think we've established that the Scorpio is no more a 'True 4K gaming console' than the PS4 Pro is. Maybe Microsoft should have chosen the wording better then?

[The Mighty Ash]

It's more of a 4K capable

console than the pro. 

[Wallace]

4 minutes ago, Down by Law said:

I think we've established that the Scorpio is no more a 'True 4K gaming console' than the PS4 Pro is. Maybe Microsoft should have chosen the wording better then?

 

I suppose that statement depends on how many multiplatform games run at 'true 4K' on Scorpio vs PS4Pro.

[rafaqat]

1 minute ago, Down by Law said:

I think we've established that the Scorpio is no more a 'True 4K gaming console' than the PS4 Pro is. Maybe Microsoft should have chosen the wording better then?

 

I think it's mostly marketing jargon for MS that they can use to push the "we're more powerful than PS4Pro" in an easy way.  It's without doubt quite a bit more powerful than the PS4Pro.  It really is.  Looking forward to seeing what devs can do with it.  

 

[angel]

The pro is exactly what it's called..a double gpu, higher clocked ps4. Which is great and I love mine for it. The scorpio is way more than that though, it's not even a competition spec wise. I just really, really hope they use the power wisely.

 

Tell you what mind, they better make it back compatible with peripherals.

[Revival]

9 minutes ago, Down by Law said:

Alright then, Rise of the Tomb Raider and Infinite Warfare both run native 4K. "Try Again"

 

Sure, No problem...

 

According to Digital Foundry..

 

Infinite Warfare:
checkerboarded 1560p

 

Rise of the Tomb Raider:
checkerboarded 2160p

 

Neither native 4k

[Dimahoo]

Even if £500 Its a fucking bargain. I hope they throw in an elite controller.