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Football Thread 2016/17


Plissken
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I'm not convinced most of the England players are ever world beaters for their clubs. They always have more talented players around them. 

We continue to bury our head in the sand regarding our players. They simply lack the technical ability and that must come from coaching. There are exceptions of course and always have been. 

 

Anyway

 

I think people forget that Rooney has been at the top since he was 18. Very few players hit the level he did at that age. I always said he would burnout before he hit 30 and to me he has. A lot of peak players go 25-32 ish from memory. Rooney did it from 18-28 ish. That itself is remarkable. 

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Isn't the Rooney problem exactly the same as the Gerrard one was  - in that a decent but limited player gets ideas above his station and manages to successfully dictate to a succession of international managers where and how they get to play, to the detriment of the team. 

 

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15 minutes ago, nakamura said:

Big Sam felt like a little boy at Christmas during that interview. I like passion but he just seemed way out of his depth. 

 

The last one to do that was Maclaren, eyes lighting up when he got to talk about Stevie G and JT.

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3 hours ago, neoELITE said:

That's really harsh. Rooney's had an astonishingly good career. I'm surprised he's not retired from international football but that's up to him. Who else is better in midfield, is English and is able to sit in that midfield and offer what Paul Scholes, Gazza or Glen Hoddle did (in my view, they're the three best English midfielders I've seen in my lifetime)? He's the record goal scorer, will probably surpass Peter Shilton's appearance record and he's won just about everything at club level. I was hardly enthralled by that England performance and I don't expect them to do anything at the next World Cup but singling Rooney out is harsh. Yes, he's the captain. I think Allardyce was trying to articulate something about trying to fit him into a team but just didn't articulate it very well.

England are sadly a very ordinary team of average at best internationals. Rooney's above average. Ronaldo and Messi comparisons aren't fair. Few players in the last hundred years are on a par with them. 

 

So a player should be in the team on merit?

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I think Rooney is living proof that it's not just a player's age that matters, it's also the miles on his odometer. Ian Wright and Kevin Phillips turned pro late (mid-twenties) and went on to have late peaks before playing at a decent level until their mid-to-late 30s (and beyond). Rooney broke into the Everton team at 16, and has already played pretty much a full career's worth of football, so it's understandable he's slowing down a bit.

 

What's annoying is that England seem to have their 9,423,176th consecutive manager that can't seem to get the right players into the right system at the right time, and therefore won't drop him regardless of what else happens.

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2 hours ago, Gotters said:

Isn't the Rooney problem exactly the same as the Gerrard one was  - in that a decent but limited player gets ideas above his station and manages to successfully dictate to a succession of international managers where and how they get to play, to the detriment of the team. 

 

Gerrard was repeatedly sacrificed, played as deep midfield , played as left wing etc  etc, when for 8 years, the England team should have been built around him .

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2 hours ago, angel said:

He's a bit more than 'decent but limited' but he is a bit too big for his boots. Its a big faux pas from Sam already, basically offering deference to one of his players, you'd not catch Pep or Jose doing that.

I;m not sure I have ever known a manager say "we'll he can do what he like because he knows best" at any level. It is an astonishing thing to say.

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3 hours ago, Yobo Ahoy said:

I think the point they are making is that if he isn't on the level of other world class players, why should we need to 'fit him in'?

 

I think it would be different if there was not adequate cover in midfield, but really we are playing him at the expense of Alli which is nuts. 

 

 

Dele Alli has been awful since he started playing for England. I don't see what he does other than have shots blocked on the edge of the area. We're just not very good. I don't think even Jesus would do anything with this shower.

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26 minutes ago, PeteBrant said:

Gerrard was repeatedly sacrificed, played as deep midfield , played as left wing etc  etc, when for 8 years, the England team should have been built around him .

 

But that 'sacrifice' saw him asked to play that role, but he decided he'd be better off up the pitch so repeatedly used to bomb on leaving center mid vacated in a reckless manner.

 

The manager has to be in charge, all this 'the players know best' rubbish is just a sign of weakness not seen since the McLaren era. Sure they should have freedom on the pitch to play, we're not after an LvG level of regimented drilling, but saying to Rooney 'do what you want' is clearly rubbish, and not worthy of several million quid a year to manage the team. It's not like he's Messi or Ronaldo and worthy of that level of freedom.

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2 hours ago, Gotters said:

 

But that 'sacrifice' saw him asked to play that role, but he decided he'd be better off up the pitch so repeatedly used to bomb on leaving center mid vacated in a reckless manner.

 

This right here is pure fantasy. He always played his position and as a result, often didn't play very well compared to his club form (where he was given much more freedom). I also find it laughable that you could describe him as 'decent but limited'. He was one of the most complete players around.

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2 hours ago, d ebolenk said:

there are plenty of better footballers than Christiano Ronaldo, either now or in history.

Ronaldo belongs to the absolute elite level, the level at which its pointless to try and separate who is better that who; Maradonna, Pele, Zidane, Messi, Ronaldo, Cryuff, Platini, Eusebio, Best,  De Stefano. They are all at a level that is beyond 99% of other footballers in history

 

I would love to hear who these "Plenty" of players are that better than Ronaldo.

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I don't think those class comparisons regarding football and the stylistic approach in Spain and England hold up.

 

The Spanish hardly have a great historical tradition of patient, technical football...the current approach is something that only really started to solidify over the past 15 or so years, and i think was heavily influenced by the Cruyff ethos of Barca by the time it really took hold in the mid-00s.It wasn't a natural homegrown way of playing for them, as i'm sure anyone has seen a good amount of Spanish teams from pre-late 90s\early 00s will confirm.

 

The national team generally played a high-tempo, "heart over mind", physical and very cynical and dirty style.They usually had 2 or 3 classier players mixed in there, but it was basically a mix of the more aggressive side of British football and the cynical defensive side of Argentina\Uruguay...they were far from one of the standard bearers of 20th century cultured technical football.At club level it was largely foreign players that provided the great creativity or genius forward play of the more famous Real\Barca teams.

 

It's been extremely impressive how they have managed to establish a new ethos and national football identity with such success, but i'd say it's only been recently they've started to produce more skillful generations of players than England.

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Agreed, ebolenk's two posts are the best thing I have read on this forum for some time, which is high praise indeed. I think I would get on very well with him down the pub. I got into a drunken argument during the Euros by saying Iniesta is the best player currently still playing professional football in the world today, using similar arguments to those above. I got laughed at by a group of idiots who told me I didn't know what I was talking about because Messi and Ronaldo were clearly better. One even told me to look at Football Manager stats as proof :facepalm:

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Think the only possible all time great playing at the moment is Lahm. Well, him and Messi. Think it's extremely difficult to compare across generations though. Lists like that are always skewed to attackers as well, like Zidane being mentioned above, when Makelele was as good a player, just in a different role.

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It's easy to wax lyrical about the superiority and importance of playmakers over a great striker, especially when it seems England are desperate for their great striker to keep playing as a mediocre playmaker.  But I think it's just falling into the same trap as England managers keep falling into.  Comparing players can be fun, but it is a team game and it is down to how players in their teams fill their roles and with so much variation you can always devise a new means to compete.

 

Jonathan Wilson wrote this great article

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/apr/08/jurgen-klopp-liverpool-english-football-gegenpressing

on how if English football had had the courage of its convictions it would have developed the pressing style that is proving successful now.

 

Hearing talk of Modric, Alonso and Iniesta put me in mind of the 2013 Champions League when Madrid and Barcelona were destroyed by Dortmund's outstanding centreforward and Bayern's ruthless and direct wingplay.  It doesn't prove that a playmaker is inherently inferior to a centreforward or a winger any more than it proves them superior.  It shows that with a clear strategy of how to play with what you have - provided what you have is very very good - you can, and probably will, win.

 

Besides.  Ledley King is the greatest player of all time.

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The Original Ronaldo is the greatest player for me. Before his injuries his strength, speed and skill meant he could tear teams apart on his own. Ronaldo and Messi are different kinds of players and also have staggering longevity at the top of the game for outfield players compared to Rooney who is now completely burnt the out.

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Good posts, would it be too simplistic to say that assembling a team of world beaters lessens each ones shine. Suarez was best when he was single handedly almost winning the title for Liverpool, Bale dragging spurs up a level, Ronaldo at MU etc?

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I don't care how eloquently anyone puts it, C.Ronaldo is without question one of the best players of all time. How can someone who scores over 50 goals a season not be important?

 

Fifty fucking goals. From one player. On a consistent basis. He also tore the PL to shreds, so he's proven he can do it in 2 different leagues.

 

Unequal league you say? Doesn't Iniesta play in the same league? He's been surrounded by the best players like Messi, Xavi, Busquets etc. I wish I had more time to write this post. But how anyone thinks Ronaldo is not an all time great is baffling.

 

Him and Messi are on their own level.

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Nah, Messi is on a different level to Ronaldo.

 

In terms of goalscoring achievments they're about as good as each other, but Messi creates more chances for his team mates, is a better passer of the ball, is as good a dribbler as anyone has seen, is way more prolific from free kicks and has scored some of the greatest goals we have ever seen. The only attribute which Ronaldo has over Messi is that he's a better header of the ball. There's no doubt Ronaldo is in the top 10 or 20 of all time, but Messi is top 3.  

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1 hour ago, sith said:

I don't care how eloquently anyone puts it, C.Ronaldo is without question one of the best players of all time. How can someone who scores over 50 goals a season not be important?

 

Fifty fucking goals. From one player. On a consistent basis. He also tore the PL to shreds, so he's proven he can do it in 2 different leagues.

 

Unequal league you say? Doesn't Iniesta play in the same league? He's been surrounded by the best players like Messi, Xavi, Busquets etc. I wish I had more time to write this post. But how anyone thinks Ronaldo is not an all time great is baffling.

 

Him and Messi are on their own level.

 

He is without question one of the best goalscorers of all time but that doesn't necessarily make him one of the best players and that's the point being made. No-one mentions Gerd Muller during these best player debates.

 

It's extremely subjective but it's easy to see why people think different things about Ronaldo because much of his success is down to hard work rather than natural talent. You get the impression he would excel in almost any sport due to his attitude and body whereas Messi and Iniesta are such natural footballers.

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