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And followed later on with a layered helping of

 

Spoiler

Look, they're asleep, how cute. They're so great. Have I told you how great and how much of a genius they are? Yes they're so amazing.

 

It comes across as patronising at best and fake at worst.

 

If I came out to someone and they started up that shit all day I'd be furious.

 

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I get annoyed when Star Trek ships are pilotted with stick controls like they're a fighter plane. That's how it works in Star Wars, not Star Trek. 

The space battle this week was like a poor imitation of a Millennium Falcon sequence. 

I don't think the creators of this show appreciate any of the things that make Star Trek great. They seem to want to make some sort of Dawson's Creek / Last Jedi hybrid. 

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2 minutes ago, Benny said:

And followed later on with a layered helping of

 

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Look, they're asleep, how cute. They're so great. Have I told you how great and how much of a genius they are? Yes they're so amazing.

 

It comes across as patronising at best and fake at worst.

 

If I came out to someone and they started up that shit all day I'd be furious.

 

Yep. It's not like Stamets and Hugh get crew members going 'oh, you're gay? That's SO COOL'.

 

DS9 addressed these issues by just including them as a normal part of human society that barely needed mentioning.

 

Of course we couldn't expect Disco to do anything with subtlety though.

 

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5 hours ago, Papaya Dance said:
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The bit after Tilly comes up with the plan was hilarious. Cut to detmer looking serious, then black lass at helm, back to detmer, then saru, then detmer once more for a final serious look. A played out to ridiculously dramatic music. Well worth going back to watch again.

 

 

It's like watching the X-Factor 'crowd reactions'. 

Screenshot_20201204_203407.jpg

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8 minutes ago, readonly said:

 

It absolutely didn't. I'm sorry, but as a gay man I have a real bee in my bonnet about this.

 

Here is the sum total of DS9's representations of LGBT+ people:

 

- Dax gets together with an old partner who is now a woman; the taboo has nothing to do with homosexuality

- Dax is not surprised that Pel, who is apparently male, is attracted to Quark

- Mirror Kira (who is evil) is a bisexual dominatrix and sadist

- Laas the changeling is a metaphor for queerness, if you read it a certain way

- Garak is apparently to be read as omnisexual but this is not present anywhere in the text - the only vaguely romantic relationship we see him have is with Ziyal.

 

DS9 managed more than TNG did but, frankly, not much more, and under the aegis of arch homophobe Berman we should be grateful we got this much. But some sketched in details do not amount to "including them as a normal part of human society that barely needed mentioning". It amounts to "barely mentioning". We don't meet any LGBT people. We don't meet anyone in a same sex relationship. We don't spend any time with anyone who identifies as LGBT+.

 

Discovery might have fucked up a lot of things, but this, this, it's gotten right. Yes, we'll roll our eyes in days to come about how unsubtle it all is, but give me that over total erasure any day.

Sorry, I'm happy to be corrected there. I agree DS9 didn't show nearly as much as it could have but it was also filmed a quarter of a century ago and for its time I still think it was streets ahead of most mainstream TV in terms of diversity.

 

Have you seen the What We Left Behind documentary? I recall Andrew Robinson admitting in that they should've just made Garak openly gay but they bottled it.

 

Point definitely taken that it was a bad example. I still can't agree Disco has got it right though. They've included a non-binary character and turned it into a marketing exercise where it should be included because that's just part of the society they're representing because of course it is.j

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I actually enjoyed this week's episode, which seems to be a common occurrence when Frakes is directing. 

 

As for the thing:

 

Spoiler

I did think it was a shame that they made it a thing, and something Adira felt uncomfortable revealing. Star Trek usually handles stuff like this by normalising it as something everyone's finally grown up about, and instead we're shown that it's still an issue hundreds of years in the future.

 

However, I did think it was actually handled relatively well in the context of a present day issue, and I can only applaud the writers for including a non-binary character in a positive way. 

 

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Yes that was one of the few aspects of the episode I didn't mind.

 

Spoiler

The actor themselves is non-binary and uses They/them, so it's good the non-binary character role is being played by someone actually non-binary. I think it may have amounted to the actor themselves coming out on the show, which would take a lot of bravery, so I at least support the show for allowing that one scene to happen.

 

The later unsubtle "look how woke we are" writing around it is Discovery being Discovery though.

 

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20 hours ago, Garwoofoo said:

I'm not sure I've even got the energy to watch it this week. I might just read all Benny's spoilers and spare myself the anger and resentment.

 

That's what I've done for the entire season... :)

 

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I don't think it's "not star trek" for that kind of tension to exist in universe. But i can't come from the central cast, the federation is supposed to be the best and brightest. Sexuality and pronouns should as about as contentious as someone's favourite type of sandwich. They're beyond all of this. Go to the bigot planet that week if you want to explore a current events thing.

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I think they're lining up Stammets as getting a bit paternal towards Adira (and in turn Dr Culber ...yeah, I checked imdb for all these names, coz Discovery)

 

I felt the scene explaining about they/them, and almost the overuse later, is because they are getting lined up to be old fuddies duddies trying their best.

 

Was that just how I read it?

 

It's still shit writing either way since I have to ask. 

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On 04/12/2020 at 21:23, readonly said:

 

It absolutely didn't. I'm sorry, but as a gay man I have a real bee in my bonnet about this.

 

Here is the sum total of DS9's representations of LGBT+ people:

 

- Dax gets together with an old partner who is now a woman; the taboo has nothing to do with homosexuality

- Dax is not surprised that Pel, who is apparently male, is attracted to Quark

- Mirror Kira (who is evil) is a bisexual dominatrix and sadist

- Laas the changeling is a metaphor for queerness, if you read it a certain way

- Garak is apparently to be read as omnisexual but this is not present anywhere in the text - the only vaguely romantic relationship we see him have is with Ziyal.

 

DS9 managed more than TNG did but, frankly, not much more, and under the aegis of arch homophobe Berman we should be grateful we got this much. But some sketched in details do not amount to "including them as a normal part of human society that barely needed mentioning". It amounts to "barely mentioning". We don't meet any LGBT people. We don't meet anyone in a same sex relationship. We don't spend any time with anyone who identifies as LGBT+.

 

Discovery might have fucked up a lot of things, but this, this, it's gotten right. Yes, we'll roll our eyes in days to come about how unsubtle it all is, but give me that over total erasure any day.

Nah it hasn't. It's shoved down your throat like your 6 months old. 

 

The point about ds9 is it's the future. No one bats an eyelid, it's completely irrelevant to them because it's just normal and doesn't matter. Like, we're kinda getting that way about race. At least in some countries...

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1 minute ago, Death's Head said:

 

Citation needed.

Hah. I mean I feel it anecdotally. A friend says, you know that big guy over there. Not that black dude, or that Asian guy. 

 

Don't somone start saying they should just be "that person" or I'll fucking cut you. 

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Yeah, exactly.

 

Star Trek has never really attempted to reflect a serious, considered view of what the future might be like. Like all good sci-fi, it's an extension of the era in which it's made, and it shares that era's concerns. The reason it's good is because it presents an optimistic view of humanity, and tries to push things forward ever so slightly where it can. 60s Trek has womanising Kirk but also the first interracial kiss on TV; TNG has a counsellor as a senior member of the crew and a former enemy on the bridge; DS9 has Dax; even poor neglected Enterprise tried to do what it could with the post 9/11 environment in which it found itself.

 

And yes maybe, hopefully, in the far future all the stuff that Star Trek talks about will actually be non-issues. But right here and now they are fucking huge issues and if a silly little science fiction show can make people stop and think just a bit occasionally then honestly I'm all for it. And Discovery has done almost everything wrong in its run and isn't in my opinion particularly good TV but it's had a prominent gay couple who aren't in any way defined by the fact they are gay, and a non-binary character who's able to say "this is how you should treat me", and this, this it's got right. It's clunky and it's obvious but it's coming from the right place and it's about the only point where I'm able to point at the show and say, yes, this is Star Trek.

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They've done a piss poor job of differentiating the eras. Their reinterpretation of the original series era, Picard and 1000 years later all look the sodding same. Oh no, sorry now they have a couple of random bits cut out of their ship. Imagine how pointless. Imagine how pointless a Trials and Tribble-ations style epiosde would be in the Kurtzverse.

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Yeah, one of the great things about the Orville is how perfectly it captures the look and feel of TNG. They've come close in modern Trek a couple of times - the 60s-styled Enterprise we saw in season 2 of Discovery looked great and really makes you wonder why they didn't use that aesthetic for the whole show. And in Picard I thought the android colony,  and the costumes on the androids themselves really captured that spires-and-togas look of an average TNG-era colony.

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2 hours ago, Garwoofoo said:

Yand a non-binary character who's able to say "this is how you should treat me", and this, this it's got right. It's clunky and it's obvious but it's coming from the right place and it's about the only point where I'm able to point at the show and say, yes, this is Star Trek.

Apart from it hasn't got it right. It's got it right as a mirror to current society. but this is 1300 or whatever years in the future. This should all be a non issue. But they've made it a thing, so the writers can slap each other on the back and go "SEE WE CAN WRITE IMPORTANT WORDS" What should have happened was, something along the lines of the new crew reading their intel file or personal file on the new trans character and instantly KNOWING how to interact with them with whatever appropriate pronoun or word they want to be referred to/as. and that whole scene didnt need to happen.

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9 hours ago, Nicky said:

Apart from it hasn't got it right. It's got it right as a mirror to current society. but this is 1300 or whatever years in the future. This should all be a non issue. But they've made it a thing, so the writers can slap each other on the back and go "SEE WE CAN WRITE IMPORTANT WORDS" What should have happened was, something along the lines of the new crew reading their intel file or personal file on the new trans character and instantly KNOWING how to interact with them with whatever appropriate pronoun or word they want to be referred to/as. and that whole scene didnt need to happen.

No no, we have to project today's problems onto a show set in an infathomably far future... :rolleyes:

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