Star Trek Discovery

[Garwoofoo]

9 hours ago, thesnwmn said:

I’m not sure you can really save Discovery without essentially changing its whole setup. It’s currently the Michael show. Which is a shit idea and so so far from the basic Star Trek template. For me they have to go back and build a core crew we focus on. Episodes picking out one or a small number of members. As it stands it’s not Trek to me.

 

It also needs for a lot less to appear to happen. By that I mean that in reality fuck all actually happens in an average Discovery episode but it spends all its run time showing this. There’s no time for the mess hall. Or holodecks. Or any of the non-core episode story character/crew building. The main episode story should be no more than 2/3rds of the episode and then let.

 

Finally, it’s too complicated. Trek’s story of the week formula used really very simple setups, progressions and resolutions. In Discovery I can hardly follow what is going on most of the time. It’s story is ‘noisy’ for won’t of a better word and I end up disengaged.

 

Of course none of the above would need changing if it was good at what it was shooting for. But it’s not very clear what that was and it’s shit.

 

Picard did most of this stuff though and no-one liked that either

[thesnwmn]

14 minutes ago, Garwoofoo said:

Picard did most of this stuff though and no-one liked that either

Picard was better but it’s still a single plot thing. The series is wholly about one thing, it’s a 10 hour movie. It’s exhausting. And most of its down time is spent playing on its past and saying “look at this old cast member”, see how they’re older.

[GwiDan]

Picard was worse than Discovery. The fact that it did its best to tarnish the reputation of the best ST show makes it even worse. 

[McCoy]

1 hour ago, GwiDan said:

Picard was worse than Discovery. The fact that it did its best to tarnish the reputation of the best ST show makes it even worse. 

 

Nah. Picard was uneven but was still more interesting and entertaining than Discovery. 

 

Discovery just spends half its time being dull. And the other half being ridiculously convoluted. 

 

I, arguably, liked Picard ore than most but it definitely had its flaws. Its highs were higher than discovery and its lows no where near as low. 

[Garwoofoo]

I thought Picard was perfectly reasonable right up until the last couple of episodes, which went full Discovery in terms of nonsensical threats and idiotic resolutions and were absolutely terrible as a result. For most of the rest of the show though it was a fairly low-key, reasonably episodic story about an old codger pottering about the galaxy with his crew and I was fine with that. I'd take another series of Picard over Discovery any day; at least I don't despise the main character.

[Festoon]

They're both wank.

[jcafarley]

2 hours ago, Festoon said:

They're both wank.

They really are.

[Thor]

You're both wank.

 

Discovery is indeed shit. Picard has its moments at least.

[Festoon]

1 hour ago, Thor said:

You're both wank.

 

Discovery is indeed shit. Picard has its moments at least.

 

Picard fundamentally misunderstood the relationship between Picard and Data, and made a series about it.

[Thor]

7 hours ago, Festoon said:

 

Picard fundamentally misunderstood the relationship between Picard and Data, and made a series about it.

Hmm, please elaborate.

[Monkeyboy]

In Picard, Picard totally had the hots for Data. Dewey eyed with star struck android love, he wanted a piece of that metal pipe. This tale of unrequited mandroid love haunted his dreams, his every waking moment.

 

In TNG he was just kinda his boss.

[Festoon]

5 hours ago, Monkeyboy said:

In Picard, Picard totally had the hots for Data. Dewey eyed with star struck android love, he wanted a piece of that metal pipe. This tale of unrequited mandroid love haunted his dreams, his every waking moment.

 

In TNG he was just kinda his boss.

 

Pretty much. In TNG he respected him, but in day-to-day dealings he just about tolerated him.

 

The Picard writers seemed to approach it like it was Kirk and Spock, or Kirk and Bones, which it never was. Picard would really only have been watery about Crusher, I reckon.

[Papaya Dance]

3 minutes ago, Festoon said:

 

Pretty much. In TNG he respected him, but in day-to-day dealings he just about tolerated him.

 

The Picard writers seemed to approach it like it was Kirk and Spock, or Kirk and Bones, which it never was. Picard would really only have been watery about Crusher, I reckon.

Wesley or Beverley?

[Jammy]

48 minutes ago, Festoon said:

 

Pretty much. In TNG he respected him, but in day-to-day dealings he just about tolerated him.

 

The Picard writers seemed to approach it like it was Kirk and Spock, or Kirk and Bones, which it never was. Picard would really only have been watery about Crusher, I reckon.

I think the dynamic started to change in the movies. Not Generations, but it started in Insurrection with Picard the only one who knew how to reach him when he’d gone loopy. By the end of First Contact, Picard was staying on the ship to rescue him - I forget what he says exactly to Lily, but the implication is that they’re besties. And then in Nemesis we get the Spock style sacrifice. I suspect Nemesis is pretty much all the reference material the Picard writers used.

 

[AK Bell]

Picard started well, and the middle would have been more enjoyable if I'd avoided reading other people's opinions on it. I was sort of along for the ride until people started pointing things out. But then...nothing was saving that end. Nothing. 

[Festoon]

37 minutes ago, Jammy said:

I think the dynamic started to change in the movies. Not Generations, but it started in Insurrection with Picard the only one who knew how to reach him when he’d gone loopy. By the end of First Contact, Picard was staying on the ship to rescue him - I forget what he says exactly to Lily, but the implication is that they’re besties. And then in Nemesis we get the Spock style sacrifice. I suspect Nemesis is pretty much all the reference material the Picard writers used.

 

 

Feels that way, whereas I ignore that shit completely. I think in Michael Piller's unpublished book it pretty clearly shows that that direction may have been pushed by the stars of the show, namely Stewart and Spiner. They seem to be the only ones who have script control and could influence their character's writing. They also seem to,.....eh.....not be......great......at it, so they probably weren't worth paying much attention to.

[Festoon]

4 minutes ago, AK Bell said:

Picard started well, and the middle would have been more enjoyable if I'd avoided reading other people's opinions on it. I was sort of along for the ride until people started pointing things out. But then...nothing was saving that end. Nothing. 

 

"But why is the new body old?"

"Fuck you, that's why!"

[Jammy]

Just now, Welrain said:

Youve got insurrection and first contact the wrong way round

Oh yes ! Good point. So First Contact was when the friendship really started, and they were friends by the time of Insurrection.

[McCoy]

Not sure that's completely fair. TNG was never big on emotions but as far back as The Offspring Picard was putting his command on the line for Data. 

[drmick]

4 hours ago, Jammy said:

I think the dynamic started to change in the movies. Not Generations, but it started in Insurrection with Picard the only one who knew how to reach him when he’d gone loopy. By the end of First Contact, Picard was staying on the ship to rescue him - I forget what he says exactly to Lily, but the implication is that they’re besties. And then in Nemesis we get the Spock style sacrifice. I suspect Nemesis is pretty much all the reference material the Picard writers used.

 

 

Almost as if the writers had not seen the TV show, and just watched the movies for research?

[Festoon]

3 hours ago, Jammy said:

Oh yes ! Good point. So First Contact was when the friendship really started, and they were friends by the time of Insurrection.

 

I remember sitting in the cinema and as the title card appeared, my mate said "Fist Contact" and fell into uncontrollable spasms of laughter for about 15 solid minutes.

[Jammy]

1 hour ago, drmick said:

 

Almost as if the writers had not seen the TV show, and just watched the movies for research?

I don’t think they even watched all the movies. In Generations Picard was still treating Data like in the TV show, as a trusted officer he has a good working relationship with, but still getting exasperated with him at points. Like I said, I reckon they based it all on Nemesis. If you only watched that one, it’s no surprise that you would assume they were great friends.

[Clipper]

of all the many valid criticisms to level at Picard I think the portrayal of Picard/Data's relationship as being "incorrect" is barely an issue.

 

TNG is full of moments where Picard shows that Data is more than a trusted officer. Measure of a Man and Offspring are the most obvious, throughout the series he grows and sees more in Data, yes he still irritates Picard but then that is what friends do sometimes. In Qpid Picard specifically says that he has to keep personal stuff under his hat as, in his opinion, it weakens him as an authority figure. He shows more and more warmth to Data throughout the show.

 

Then in First Contact Picard refuses to leave Data behind and makes a personal attempt to retrieve him.

 

To say it "just about Nemesis" is false. They might have based it all on Nemesis sure but I am not convinced the relationship is that "wrong" in Picard.

 

Even if you want to go down that path of Data being a trusted officer that didn't mean much of anything to Picard then that doesn't counteract much of the show anyway. Picard is dying and his Irumodic syndrome was making him more emotional and unstable. He had sat in his vineyard for over a decade and was mourning his lost past. He wanted one last hurrah and saw his old trusted officer, data, in  a dream form encouraging him to do something. They latched it onto Measure of a Man and hastily lashed it together with sticky tape and pushed it out the door.

 

The main problem with the show is firstly that the main plot was poorly hammered together as an overarching story. Secondly the crew, whilst having personality unlike discovery, were not believeable in those situations and were crudely drawn. It was a clusterfuck basically.

 

Given Stewart's age I would have preferred them to let Picard's "death" be permanent, that would have worked infinitely better and I would have forgiven it far more of its missteps.

 

But Stewart wouldn't allow that - It always amuses me that Stewart is brilliant at portraying Picard but literally has no idea why the character works. Every single suggestion he makes for the character is wrong, the TNG extras on bluray cover it quite well (obviously without being critical of Stewart!).

[drmick]

I think it's worth pointing out that, for the movies, Stewart and Spiner both held the plot to ransom, and would not sign on unless they got special parts to play.

[Clipper]

Oh there is plenty of evidence that the maker's of Picard hadn't a fucking clue - this steaming turd for instance

 

https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a30352641/star-trek-picard-more-character-based-next-generation/

 

Picard is more character based than TNG when TNG was literally all about the characters, that was entirely Michael Pillar's point and philosophy.

 

The fact is that the makers of Nu-Trek just shit all over the legacy of Star trek on a regular basis whether it is Disco or Picard. They never watched it and don't understand it. Picard's only saving grace is that it gives TNG fans a chance to see some of the old characters one more time and those actors are good enough to give us that despite the absolute garbage that hte writers and producers have lumbered the show with. Note I am referring to TNG characters , I am aware that Seven was "altered" somewhat!

 

[Jammy]

I always thought Measure Of A Man was more of about Picard’s moral standpoint of believing in Data’s right to exist rather than an existing friendship, and it’s Riker that is struggling with his role as prosecutor whilst counting Data as a friend. Maybe this is the turning point for Picard though, as he starts to see a bit more in Data as he gets to know him during that episode.

 

As you say, Picard might have more characterisation than Disco, but the result is the same - I couldn’t care less about the majority of the crew.

[Clipper]

2 hours ago, Jammy said:

I always thought Measure Of A Man was more of about Picard’s moral standpoint of believing in Data’s right to exist rather than an existing friendship, and it’s Riker that is struggling with his role as prosecutor whilst counting Data as a friend. Maybe this is the turning point for Picard though, as he starts to see a bit more in Data as he gets to know him during that episode.

 

That is how I view that episode and seems to be a thread carried through TNG  - that is why I think it is a weak stick to bash Picard with when there are soooo many sturdy ones lying around that would do the job much better

 

[Eighthours]

On 08/01/2021 at 22:01, Garwoofoo said:

I gave up two weeks ago. Got halfway through the episode with all the holograms where everyone had inexplicably been changed into a different species

It’s genuinely bizarre to me that no one in this thread figured out the obvious - that one of the bullet points on the initial whiteboard for this episode was clearly, ‘Let’s see Doug Jones out of makeup!’ and they tortuously reverse-engineered things from there. It’s a cute idea in theory, except that the computer would actually have 100% kept him Kelpian in the holodeck (the elder he trusted was Kelpian, after all, and there was zero reason for the child to be scared of his own race), and they also had to shoehorn in that everyone else changed species too in order to justify Jones doing it!  

[Garwoofoo]

54 minutes ago, Eighthours said:

It’s genuinely bizarre to me that no one in this thread figured out the obvious - that one of the bullet points on the initial whiteboard for this episode was clearly, ‘Let’s see Doug Jones out of makeup!’ and they tortuously reverse-engineered things from there. It’s a cute idea in theory, except that the computer would actually have 100% kept him Kelpian in the holodeck (the elder he trusted was Kelpian, after all, and there was zero reason for the child to be scared of his own race), and they also had to shoehorn in that everyone else changed species too in order to justify Jones doing it!  

 

Plus of course it made no sense whatsoever to change Saru to human... then change the humans to something else.

[Eighthours]

1 hour ago, Garwoofoo said:

 

Plus of course it made no sense whatsoever to change Saru to human... then change the humans to something else.

Very Discovery logic! I do like it when Trek actors who are usually swamped with prosthetics get to show their faces, though. DS9’s Far Beyond The Stars was not only a great episode in itself, but it allowed us to see the actors playing Dukat, Odo and Weyoun etc as hew-mons. Brent Spiner played same-age Doctor Soong in an otherwise forgettable season 6 TNG. It’s fun.