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So are we still pretending that the next round of consoles aren't a new gen?


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This week has been about the NX, intentionally or not, and whether it will be up to the current standard of tech. I made a point about the Scorpio on here to which someone replied it was just numbers right now without meaning. Which is fair enough I guess but really isn't that where we are now?

 

Sony and Microsoft are releasing consoles with the message that no one will be left behind. Frankly I don't buy it for one second, otherwise what's the point? I know we have the new 3DS and there was the DSi before but Nintendo are different. They never claimed to compete on tech in the last decade, whereas Sony and MS have made that their raison d'etre.

 

Maybe you could technically argue that the concept of a generation is outdated with the plan for forwards compatibility but these companies would be mugs if they released powerhouses not to leverage them.

 

Microsoft would be hammering home any sort of advantage they had over Sony and the easiest way to do that is for Scorpio exclusive features. Technically speaking it just seems like they've figured out a way to have "next gen" and "last gen" releases in the same format.

 

So let's just call it what it is - with diminishing returns, we're getting shorter gen cycles now as the spec arms race gathers pace, otherwise why release Scorpio and Neo at all?

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Neo is to extend the life of the PS4 so they can move all production onto it in a few years time, and to help VR run better.

 

NX could be some crazy genius, I hope it is, but i still consider it "this gen".

 

Scorpio will fail unless they make 1080p Scorpio-only titles and eventually move over to it entirely. Wasting its power on 4k resolution is a huge mistake, and that 6Tflops power is going to become increasingly less impressive by the time it comes out - a year and a half is a lifetime in gaming terms. I think Scorpio pretty much either gets changed entirely, or crashes and burns.

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Why is 4k a mistake? It always seems to be dismissed on here as pointless but it seems to be gaining steam in the consumer world,i am increasingly seeing affordable 4k screens in the shops (300 quid for a 42 incher in Aldi the other day) and more and more services are supporting in - Netflix,Amazon,Youtube and now PS/Xbox.

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10 minutes ago, Anne Summers said:

Why is 4k a mistake? It always seems to be dismissed on here as pointless but it seems to be gaining steam in the consumer world,i am increasingly seeing affordable 4k screens in the shops (300 quid for a 42 incher in Aldi the other day) and more and more services are supporting in - Netflix,Amazon,Youtube and now PS/Xbox.

 

Costs too much to render at native 4k, better off rendering at 1080p or 2k even and using a 4x or 2x scale up. 

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18 minutes ago, Mr. Gerbik said:

The current consoles can barely achieve 1080p/30 as it is with the kind of graphical fidelity we come to expect. Instead of falling into the same trap whilst trying to achieve 4k /30,  the Neo and Scorpio should be (fucking finally ) able to deliver 1080p/60 with beautifullydetailed graphics. That would be far more impressive visually compared to developers hampering performanceand detail just to tick off the 4k box given the known specs of the Neo and Scorpio.

I'm not sure that it's true that current consoles can't manage 1080p/30. Also, 4K and 1080/60 aren't mutually exclusive are they? A machine which can do 4K is theoretically capable of doing 1080/60 if the developers choose to make it do so. 

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6 minutes ago, Anne Summers said:

I'm not sure that it's true that current consoles can't manage 1080p/30. Also, 4K and 1080/60 aren't mutually exclusive are they? A machine which can do 4K is theoretically capable of doing 1080/60 if the developers choose to make it do so. 

 

That's what most sensible people want, stick with 1080p and large it up with 60fps and better physics and effects.  The main people really pushing 4k just happen to also make 4k tellies.

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2 hours ago, angel said:

Scorpio will fail unless they make 1080p Scorpio-only titles

 

Scorpio only wont happen. What will happen is games on Scorpio will have better graphics/framerates etc. Think of it as playing a game on low vs ultra on PC. Microsoft won't be forcing 4k on the machine.

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It'll depend how well they sell really.

 

If they become significant minority of machines and most people stick to their old boxes, Microsoft and Sony will insist that this was all their plan to have luxury high-end consoles alongside the normal ones and the real "next generation" will arrive later. They'll set their plans with developers and publishers accordingly.

 

If they sell like gangbusters and most people upgrade, they'll insist this was all their plan to push on the current generation of machines to new technical heights and that there will be other step changes later. They'll set their plans with developers and publishers accordingly.

 

It's uncharted territory for all involved and there's an awful lot of hedging going on in the messaging.

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The tech isn't quite there to make 4k worthwhile, but to write it off now is no different to all the people back in 2006 who were happy with 720p.

I've got a 4k monitor and at that resolution, games just pop. I've had people who don't even like games comment on the image quality. My mum, who plays witcher 3 on PS4 on a reasonably new LG telly couldn't believe the difference on a decent 4k monitor. After a long session at 4k, going back to 1080p on PS4 is just as jarring as going back to SD was 10 years ago.

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8 minutes ago, King A said:

 

Scorpio only wont happen. What will happen is games on Scorpio will have better graphics/framerates etc. Think of it as playing a game on low vs ultra on PC. Microsoft won't be forcing 4k on the machine.


Not to be pedantic, but Scorpio only will happen at some point. There's going to be a cut off point somewhere down the line for Bone games. :P

Have Microsoft themselves clarified the messaging? 'Cos back at E3 it was a clusterfuck with different people saying different things, Shannon Loftis said in an interview with Keighley that Scorpio exclusives would be down to the developers choice.

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9 minutes ago, Gizamaluke said:

The tech isn't quite there to make 4k worthwhile, but to write it off now is no different to all the people back in 2006 who were happy with 720p.

I've got a 4k monitor and at that resolution, games just pop. I've had people who don't even like games comment on the image quality. My mum, who plays witcher 3 on PS4 on a reasonably new LG telly couldn't believe the difference on a decent 4k monitor. After a long session at 4k, going back to 1080p on PS4 is just as jarring as going back to SD was 10 years ago.

 

Is that because of the resolution, or the display quality though? A 4K monitor today is going to be a high-end offering from the manufacturer with strict quality control, their best IPS panels, and careful factory calibratoin. There will come a day when LG's selling a low-end 4K TV with atrocious viewing angles, random numbers in the colour balance, and a backlight as smooth and flat as the Andes.

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They said a couple of times that the developers are free to use Scorpio how they choose. I guess we will have to wait & see, but I'm willing to put money on the fact that it won't be 4k only. They are already getting spanked in the market, they're not going to spend millions creating a box that will be limited to 4k only and therefore a tiny % of the market.

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6 minutes ago, King A said:

They said a couple of times that the developers are free to use Scorpio how they choose. I guess we will have to wait & see, but I'm willing to put money on the fact that it won't be 4k only. They are already getting spanked in the market, they're not going to spend millions creating a box that will be limited to 4k only and therefore a tiny % of the market.

 

no one said "4K only" did they? They said "scorpio only", right?

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8 minutes ago, Liquid Myth said:

 

It's worth bearing in mind that this chart was created by people who were incredibly bitter that their pre-HD progressive scan TVs were made obsolete by the then-new HDTV boom.

 

Quite the opposite, it's from a blog post called "1080p does matter".

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13 minutes ago, RubberJohnny said:

OK so no one actually answered the OP as to whether we're calling it a new gen or not, everyone is just getting their console warring in early?

 

 

"Generation" is a wooly phrase when it comes to iterative design; is "new 3DS" a generation beyond 3DS? It Iphone 6s a generation beyond iPhone 6?

 

I don't think the new consoles are next gen; they are improved versions of the same model. You don't tend to term PC's in generations (would you count DX11-DX12 a generational? I don't know), and I think this is where this is heading.

 

Iterative design, more regular updates, "Generation" tends not to have meaning until there is a fundamental change.

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9 minutes ago, King A said:

There was stuff being said around announcement that the games wont look any different to Xbox One, except being in 4k.

 

and what it'll need to sell is "scorpio-only" games, running at 1080/60p that look BETTER (moar shinies!!!) than xbox one, otherwise what's the point?

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4 minutes ago, SeanR said:

 

and what it'll need to sell is "scorpio-only" games, running at 1080/60p that look BETTER (moar shinies!!!) than xbox one, otherwise what's the point?

 

I think the idea is rather than exclusive versions (Think BF4 for 360, then released again for XB1), you just buy the same disk and it will run on both machines. One with the settings (obviously not user changable settings, something the devs switch on) on "low, the other on "high".

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30 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

 

Is that because of the resolution, or the display quality though? A 4K monitor today is going to be a high-end offering from the manufacturer with strict quality control, their best IPS panels, and careful factory calibratoin. There will come a day when LG's selling a low-end 4K TV with atrocious viewing angles, random numbers in the colour balance, and a backlight as smooth and flat as the Andes.

 

Exactly, there are hundreds of factors that can make one screen more impressive than another, resolution is only part of that. I'm also going to assume you sit far closer to your monitor than most people do with their TVs, @Gizamaluke.

 

Uncharted 4 had such high-quality anti-aliasing that you could barely see a single pixel, I think you'd have a hard time convincing anyone it would look signifcantly better at over double the resolution on a screen of the same size.

 

4k DCI is a good working format for film production.  The consumer format though, Ultra HD, is basically just a marketing gimmick that display manufacturers hope will trigger another HD boom (it won't).

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7 minutes ago, CarloOos said:

 

Exactly, there are hundreds of factors that can make one screen more impressively than another, resolution is only a part of that. I'm also going to assume you sit far closer to your monitor than most people do with their TVs, @Gizamaluke.

 

Uncharted 4 had such high-quality anti-aliasing that you could barely see a single pixel, I think you'd have a hard time convincing anyone it would look any better at over double the resolution on a screen of the same size.

 

I've ran Uncharted on the same screen. PS4 and PC both hooked up, and yeah, visually the game is amazing, but at 4 times the resolution it would look absolutely insane.

 

It's a 40" monitor and I sit 2 feet away. I get that you need ridiculous hardware to push 4k and that it's not really viable yet, but to say there would be no difference is crazy.

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25 minutes ago, King A said:

 

I think the idea is rather than exclusive versions (Think BF4 for 360, then released again for XB1), you just buy the same disk and it will run on both machines. One with the settings (obviously not user changable settings, something the devs switch on) on "low, the other on "high".

 

Yeah, that'll sell it. PC gaming for the masses!

 

Sorry, I can't see it doing well.

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