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The Last of Us Part 2

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8 minutes ago, the_debaser said:

Read a few reviews of this game so far, all of them a complete waste of time. Learned nothing. There are two primary things I want to know about any game. 
 

1) what are the controls and mechanics like? (this is because bad controls wreck everything)

 

2) is it satisfying to play?

 

All the reviews blather on about depictions of violence and the story. Nothing about the fucking gameplay itself.
 

Is it repetitive?  How does the character control? Is there is a satisfying hook that keeps you coming back for more? Do you struggle with the interface or does it come naturally? Is it fun?
 

Game journos by and large should stop thinking they are Will Gompertz critiquing art and instead go back to the fundamentals. 

 

1) Controls are amazing, faster and more "energetic" but still maintain a more grounded feel. You can literally change all the controls, buttons to anything you like.

 

2) It is very satisfying to play, especially when you make your own difficulty with mix and maxing options. You can also choose to make allies useful this time. It plays faster, with bigger spaces and better AI and many scenarios. Some moments are simply incredible. By the end the gameplay becomes a bit repetitive but it doesn't have a chance to bring the whole thing down.

 

As for the "hook" I restarted it immediately in New Game+ and higher difficulties. 

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1 minute ago, Spacehost said:

That feels somewhat egregious in a story where you kill approximate 300,000 people and their pets.

 

I know, that is why games are trying to justify this with various things like stories and characters. But the story is about completely different things. Of course, if you can't get past that, then that's fine as well. To each his own.

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4 minutes ago, Talk Show Host said:

 

I know, that is why games are trying to justify this with various things like stories and characters.

So what's the purpose of the violence, if it's so central to the game that they felt the need to build a world where it was justified? Unless it's purely for titilation and entertainment.

 

That's the question I'm interested in. In the first game it seemed to be so Joel could be driven more and more to protect Ellie and vice versa, explore their relationship, see how far he's willing to go.

 

Spoilers: FUCKIN FAR

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3 minutes ago, Spacehost said:

So what's the purpose of the violence, if it's so central to the game that they felt the need to build a world where it was justified? Unless it's purely for titilation and entertainment.

 

It's the gameplay I guess first and foremost. The violence also was born from the world, not the other way around. 

 

If you can solve the gameplay problem which many AAA games have, which is based more or less on violence, please do so. I would really appreciate it actually.

 

I think I'm done with that discussion, people are literally bored to death.

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Just now, Talk Show Host said:

 

It's the gameplay I guess first and foremost. The violence also was born from the world, not the other way around. 

 

If you can solve the gameplay problem which many AAA games have, which is based more or less on violence, please do so. I would really appreciate it actually.

I don't have solutions, but it's something that can and should be discussed as it's pretty absurd that our highest bar of storytelling is usually something where Rambo would go "that's fucked up bro, you need to stop".

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Just now, Spacehost said:

I don't have solutions, but it's something that can and should be discussed as it's pretty absurd that our highest bar of storytelling is usually something where Rambo would go "that's fucked up bro, you need to stop".

 

Wow, if you got that from the first LoU, I don't know what to tell you. 

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1 hour ago, Uncle Nasty said:

From the Gamespot review which is mostly negative throughout, but for some reason they slap an 8/10 on it


I had you weeks ago: ;)

 

On 29/05/2020 at 19:22, jonamok said:

I pity the reviewers for this.
 

Imagine if it really is just as bleak, miserable, desperate and soul-destroying a meditation on dog and people murder as it looks. And in this current climate you look at what the world is becoming in real-time, and you look at the upturned faces of your young family, and you know you just hated every minute, and would rather have been playing anything else, or at least have been out in the bright light while it lasts...


Then you have to do this:

“Brutal and beautiful, not for the faint of heart, but improves on the original in every way: 94%.“

 

Cos if you don’t, all your hardcore peers will point and laugh at you, and those readers with well thumbed, limited edition Ellie statues will dox you.

 

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My hot take: you could easily make a TloU sequel with fewer human kills and a greater number of whatever-the-frig-they-call-zombies-in-this-universe. And not lose anything in the telling. 

 

 

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Just now, Talk Show Host said:

 

Wow, if you got that from the first LoU, I don't know what to tell you. 

It's true! I lost count of how many people I stabbed, beat, shot, impaled, burned alive and so on. It's extremely problematic that all our best games seem to come with a gigantic body count.

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2 minutes ago, Spacehost said:

It's true! I lost count of how many people I stabbed, beat, shot, impaled, burned alive and so on. It's extremely problematic that all our best games seem to come with a gigantic body count.

 

It is a big problem, yes. But that was not the story. What stayed with me was the incredible journey and bond between the characters and the violence faded away, justified at least on some level by the brutal world.

 

But I never argued that its a problem. But for all games, not just tLoU, something which many reviewers conveniently (?) forgot today.

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Just now, Talk Show Host said:

 

It is a big problem, yes. But that was not the story. What stayed with me was the incredible journey and bond between the characters and the violence faded away, justified at least on some level by the brutal world.

"That was not the story"- and there's the problem. Is the game just an HBO miniseries with a very realistic shooting gallery attached to it? I really, really hope that it isn't.

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Uncharted 4 seemed to adjust the shooty/talky ratio so there was a lot more climbing, swinging and chit-chat and a lot less combat, and was made significantly more boring as a result (in my opinion, of course).

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30 minutes ago, the_debaser said:

Read a few reviews of this game so far, all of them a complete waste of time. Learned nothing. There are two primary things I want to know about any game. 
 

1) what are the controls and mechanics like? (this is because bad controls wreck everything)

 

2) is it satisfying to play?

 

All the reviews blather on about depictions of violence and the story. Nothing about the fucking gameplay itself.
 

Is it repetitive?  How does the character control? Is there is a satisfying hook that keeps you coming back for more? Do you struggle with the interface or does it come naturally? Is it fun?
 

Game journos by and large should stop thinking they are Will Gompertz critiquing art and instead go back to the fundamentals. 


Pretty much what I’m trying to find out, as we know TLOU was unplayable as an actual game and while I generally don’t like ‘Sony games’ I loved the recent GoW - I even started uncharted 4 the other day but a couple of hours in it seems to suffer front the ND disease of controls that are clumsy at best so I’m cautious about picking this up even with the reviews....

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The reviews remind me a LOT of the mass ejaculations that critics had over God of War. Which was a good but hardly revolutionary game that actually suffered from the grandiose expectations reviews had set for it. 

 

Except this time the reviews are saying the game is no fun to play 10/10

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16 minutes ago, PeteBrant said:

GraciousFreeGoldeneye-size_restricted.gi

 

If a nuanced discussion of the relative merits of gratuitous violence in games is super boring to you, why not head over to gamefaqs for some "GAME IS GUD" level discussion? Like what are you hoping for from Rllmuk if you think this is boring? Because there's a billion sites with idiotic comments from morons that mean nothing which you could be visiting instead.

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1 minute ago, Shimmyhill said:


Pretty much what I’m trying to find out, as we know TLOU was unplayable as an actual game and while I generally don’t like ‘Sony games’ I loved the recent GoW - I even started uncharted 4 the other day but a couple of hours in it seems to suffer front the ND disease of controls that are clumsy at best so I’m cautious about picking this up even with the reviews....

What the fuck is this shit?! Have you got sausages for fingers or something? 

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The gun play in TLOU was an abomination, floaty inaccurate wobbly aiming. The stealth stuff was rubbish too, as soon as you were seen you were helpless. I guess that might be what he was getting at? It got the fundamentals hopelessly wrong, like all Naughty Dog games. 

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10 minutes ago, Pob said:

Uncharted 4 seemed to adjust the shooty/talky ratio so there was a lot more climbing, swinging and chit-chat and a lot less combat, and was made significantly more boring as a result (in my opinion, of course).

 

Well you had nerds screaming LUDONARATIVE DISSONANCE! at them for years so when they made a game where you don't shoot anybody for three chapters, it was now boring and overrated instead. lol

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17 minutes ago, Spacehost said:

"That was not the story"- and there's the problem. Is the game just an HBO miniseries with a very realistic shooting gallery attached to it? I really, really hope that it isn't.

 

I don't know how to respond to that. It seems it is a criticism against all games and their use of violence, which I agree. But you have to provide some solutions if that is a problem. Thousands of games have violence, story, cutscenes, etc. If the actual story that is being told bears no weight on how you experience the game, then all that remains is a violent game. Surely that applies to movies as well? I mean, if you take away Kill Bill's story, motives and characters, then all that remains is violence? Gladiator as well or any action movie with a story? 

 

Really not sure where you are going with this. 

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4 hours ago, Broker said:

the completely identical uncharted games

 

This is not true or else, given that I really like TLOU, it follows that  I'd probably like the Uncharted games, at least a little bit. But I don't like them at all.

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Just now, Talk Show Host said:

 

I don't know how to respond to that. It seems it is a criticism against all games and their use of violence, which I agree. But you have to provide some solutions if that is a problem. If the actual story that is being told bears no weight on how you experience the game, then all that remains is a violent game. Surely that applies to movies as well? I mean, if you take away Kill Bill's story, motives and characters, then all that remains is violence? Gladiator as well or any action movie with a story? 

 

Really not sure where you are going with this. 

You just said that the violence "wasn't the story"- is it or isn't it? If you take the violence out of Kill Bill- a homage to violent 70s action films and a revenge narrative- it doesn't make any sense. Ditto Gladiator.

 

Could you take most of the killing you do in The Last Of Us 2 out without affecting the narrative one bit? Then you've got to ask, what's it there for? Does it have thematic relevance that's important to the story? Why did they choose to tell that story? Is it in there because it's what people expect to do in a game? Can you draw a line straight back to Space Invaders and that's the only reason you kill so many people?

 

These aren't rhetorical questions, they're ones that game critics ask and game reviewers don't. I like having discussions about this stuff because it cuts to the bones of what a modern game is.

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1 minute ago, the_debaser said:

The gun play in TLOU was an abomination, floaty inaccurate wobbly aiming. The stealth stuff was rubbish too, as soon as you were seen you were helpless. I guess that might be what he was getting at? It got the fundamentals hopelessly wrong, like all Naughty Dog games. 

I'd take issue with that. Can't say I had a massive issue with the gun play and as for the stealth, you certainly weren't helpless when you were spotted. You could try and trade fire, melee if up close or you could run off, hide again and regroup, set a trap, lob a bomb, etc. I'm all for criticism where valid (and the bodycount is definitely ripe for that) but it feels like you're making stuff up to justify why you didn't like it.

 

I mean, sometimes a game just bounces off you, I get that. Had it with God Of War which I thought I'd love but just left me cold. I'm sure it's amazing and maybe I'll go back to it at some point.

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13 minutes ago, the_debaser said:

The gun play in TLOU was an abomination, floaty inaccurate wobbly aiming. The stealth stuff was rubbish too, as soon as you were seen you were helpless. I guess that might be what he was getting at? It got the fundamentals hopelessly wrong, like all Naughty Dog games. 

 

TLOU is the only game where I've enjoyed the combination of stealth and combat, and figuring out how to best traverse areas. I'm pretty sure there were times I got seen and went on to battle my way out it. The sandbox nature of the combat and improvisation was one of the biggest draws.

 

I usually loathe stealth games. I completed MGS 1-4 by run-and-gunning.

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Nah, God of War is crap too, unless you think firing a boomerang or whatever it was at three icons in the distance over and over and over again makes for entertainment. 

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Just now, the_debaser said:

Nah, God of War is crap too, unless you think firing a boomerang or whatever it was at three icons in the distance over and over and over again makes for entertainment. 

To be fair, that's pretty much how I feel about it too :)

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2 minutes ago, EUkdazs said:

 it feels like you're making stuff up to justify why you didn't like it.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Spacehost said:

You just said that the violence "wasn't the story"- is it or isn't it? If you take the violence out of Kill Bill- a homage to violent 70s action films and a revenge narrative- it doesn't make any sense. Ditto Gladiator.

 

Could you take most of the killing you do in The Last Of Us 2 out without affecting the narrative one bit? Then you've got to ask, what's it there for? Does it have thematic relevance that's important to the story? Why did they choose to tell that story? Is it in there because it's what people expect to do in a game? Can you draw a line straight back to Space Invaders and that's the only reason you kill so many people?

 

These aren't rhetorical questions, they're ones that game critics ask and game reviewers don't. I like having discussions about this stuff because it cuts to the bones of what a modern game is.

 

You said "our best story is doing things Rambo wouldn't do" and I replied "its not". Our best story was about characters and people and loss with the LoU. If you don't count that as a story then I don't know what we are discussing. 

 

If you take the killing out of the LoU then the narrative will not change. But what will you fill it with? And how will that sell? How will you fill 30 hours of game? If you don't like violence as a form of gameplay, then I am with you. But can you solve this? If we are talking about this then it applies to all games, not only ND's.

 

Do you have any solutions how to take out the violent gameplay and fill it with something else and still sell millions?

 

Maybe it is what @Broker said and we simply have to shift the mentality of the the developers? Maybe, but you would still get violent games and, in this case, in the world of LoU, I would personally prefer a violent than an non violent game, the same way I would prefer cannibalism in the Road and not farmers and crops.

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