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Destiny 2 Shadowkeep: the Undying Grind

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On 31/12/2018 at 11:33, Nobuo's Organ said:

the grinds to unlock the new forges just look like time wasting.

 

For me I'm struggling to complete a forge. The grind was the easy part and tied into tootling around in various places normally. I've unlocked the first forge and it's listed as a 610 activity. I got to 608 with my main and thought I could probably take it. Yet you get in and then the enemies are 615 in the first round, then 625 in the second round. I couldn't fathom why the activity was listed at 610.

 

Really disappointed. For me, Black Armory is the worst Destiny DLC ever. I can't access it without constantly doing all the old engram milestones over and over again each week for another - what - three weeks if I'm lucky before I'm 615-620?

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The first forge unlock is nothing compared to the 4 hour slog of the 3rd.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Hexx said:

The first forge unlock is nothing compared to the 4 hour slog of the 3rd.

 

 

 

What's the light level of the third, Hexxy?

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9 minutes ago, tnman said:

 

What's the light level of the third, Hexxy?

 

They all the same light levels IIRC

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3 minutes ago, Hexx said:

 

They all the same light levels IIRC

 

So for an endgame activity I understand why they wouldn't necessarily tier the forges, but for crying out loud couldn't they have at least structured it in such a way that the first time you attempt one it's in the format of a mission so you at least get a feel for the thing?

 

I'm in such a hump over this.

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Yeah, they're all the same power level. They really should have started off the first one a bit lower, then the second one could have been exactly where it is and they all are, and the third one something like 630. Then the last one, coming tomorrow, should have been at or near power cap. And a change of mechanics would have been good, too. /whinge

 

It is a whinge, but that would have provided a better path through the content and a bit more variety and differentiation between the forges. Having said that, one of our team only played the first two weeks after the DLC dropped, hasn't been on since (he'll be back tomorrow), and I believe got to 630-odd in that fortnight. And that's just playing on one character, not doing leet grinding or anything. Even though he might have got lucky with some drops - it's always a fucker when you get a powerful drop for the same slot four or five times in a row - it really shouldn't take that long to get to a reasonable level for the forges (they're quite doable at 610+, though obviously they get easier once you're higher).

 

Edit: though in that fortnight he did also do one raid (Last Wish) completion, and 2/3 of the new one, so obviously that helped.

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On 07/01/2019 at 09:39, tnman said:

 

On 07/01/2019 at 09:18, tnman said:

 

For me I'm struggling to complete a forge. The grind was the easy part and tied into tootling around in various places normally. I've unlocked the first forge and it's listed as a 610 activity. I got to 608 with my main and thought I could probably take it. Yet you get in and then the enemies are 615 in the first round, then 625 in the second round. I couldn't fathom why the activity was listed at 610.

 

Really disappointed. For me, Black Armory is the worst Destiny DLC ever. I can't access it without constantly doing all the old engram milestones over and over again each week for another - what - three weeks if I'm lucky before I'm 615-620?

On tonight? We can help you get them done

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3 hours ago, luckypierre said:

On tonight? We can help you get them done

 

D'awww, thanks...

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FINALLY got Malfeasance - fuck that was a nightmare. 

Luckily the last part of the quest I invaded twice in one game and got Army of One twice with Hammerhead. Four kills without even a reload!

 

That last forge though was a ballache - so much shit to do. The bow is nice and all but I have Wish Ender which I prefer.

 

Breakneck is lovely though. So good when Rampage kicks in and it chews through people.

Wavesplitter is a nice weapon also.

 

Now I'm 650 it's time to start looking at getting the right armour load outs for things. Still fun but I think it is at its best when you are with clanmates chatting and playing.

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So Datto's on, like, hour 18 of the Niobe's Torment puzzle and this is just getting silly now. They're just shooting random words.

 

As a way of getting eyeballs on the game on Twitch, it's worked – it was number five in the directory last night, and that's with AGDQ in the middle of a Sonic block. But it's not exactly compulsive viewing. Especially since they have to spend ten minutes on the first five phases in order to spend another minute in the guessing game. Poor sod(s). I was bored of it by the time I went to bed last night and I only watched a couple of hours. To see them still at it when I got up, and still going now, four hours later, is a bit depressing.

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Aye, it's backfired a bit. I think a key difference between stuff like this and other obscure/community-solved puzzles like Outbreak Prime etc, is that they came as a surprise package for optional stuff, whereas this is the gateway to promised content - that will basically just be another forge when someone eventually solves it. If no-one ever solves it, does that mean no forge? No complete content cycle?

 

It's also not much fun fighting for twenty minutes to then shoot symbols on a wall, then rinse and repeat, when you're basically just guessing every time (unlike, for example, the symbols in Riven etc). It's neither riveting viewing nor, I'm sure, riveting to play. Previous obscure quests tended to have a lot more fun built in as well as the cryptography or other complicating layer, which you didn't only get one chance every twenty minutes to take a single try at.

 

Still can't agree that the DLC is a shit show, mind. The forges have been mishandled, but the raid's really good imo. It's not really enough to make the whole thing a success, but I prefer it to any other raid or lair in D2 apart from Last Wish (which is top quality). So I have to commend it for that. But otherwise, yeah, the whole forge thing's been a bit of a damp squib overall, and this latest quest to open the last damn one's gone from something that could have re-energised the idea of the forges to something that might end up souring it a bit more. It would be quite funny if no-one ever were to solve it.

 

Datto's just about to give up, btw. 'I'm kinda fucking over it,' he says. 'If you wanna get someone to replace me, please do.' Not a happy man, especially since he was just about to move into a new house yesterday and then this took over his life and disrupted all his irl plans and commitments. Classic Destiny really.

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Christ almighty. I know Bungie devs were tweeting to say people were overthinking it, but there's underthinking and then there's... whatever that is.

 

EDIT: Datto just did it and didn't say a word. 

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Datto's bailing, 20 hours later.

 

This is really dumb. By all means make this really obtuse puzzle, and by all means put a timer on it. But for god's sake don't boot people back to the very beginning if they don't crack it. I've had this running in a side window all day and I'm already sick of watching the same fights over and over, I can't imagine what it's been like to actually play it over and over. When this started yesterday people were complaining about Bungie favouring streamers. I think the bigger problem is how much this has pissed them off. 

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Gladd's still going after around 22 hours. Reckons he's hallucinating now, and no-one really seems to have a handle on the seventh solution yet.

 

As I've said elsewhere, I think the main problems with this thing are putting main content (such as a forge is) on a regular schedule, then without telling anyone, suddenly locking it behind a surprise quest consisting of the most obscure 'community' puzzles imaginable. It does raise awareness and Twitch hits, but puts a lot of pressure on so-called community leaders to solve the puzzle asap so that regular players can get on and play the content they expected to get. Another main issue is one that's always been there: some of Bungie's puzzles are great to play through blind and solve. Most (though definitely not all) raid ones are like that. At the other end of the spectrum are ones that even when you know the solution you think 'man, that's not obscure - it's almost arbitrary'. You don't think 'oh yeah, of course it's that!' You just scratch your head and ask 'why?'. I think almost all the codes in this fall squarely into the later category.

 

When you put those two factors next to the non-checkpointing fights you have to plough through again and again just to get one chance to input a guess, or simply wander round the room scratching your head, with no feedback whatsoever to lead you where you need to go, you've got three of the worst aspects of Destiny - time-gating, the worst of arbitrarily obscure puzzling, and combat from the bottom rather than the top drawer of the game - and you get this. Again I'd contrast it with something like the Whisper quest, or the discovery and beating of Shattered Throne, or Last Wish, or anything else they've done in the past six months or so to raise Destiny back up from the distaste of vanilla to the level it used to be. All glorious experiences that took us by surprise and delighted us. Here we have the flipside of the same coin: gameplay which is pretty much (gunplay aside) monotonous, in the way that, say, an endless Warframe mission can be, then the arbitrary guessing at irrational puzzle solutions, then the rinse and repeat of repetitive, punitive combat, and all ultimately, for most people, not for some exciting reward, but just to unlock another forge to grind in.

 

That's what's particularly weird about this: if this last forge has the same mechanics and basic structure as the others, all this insane struggle which 99% of players wouldn't have a hope in hell of beating will lead only to a relatively straightforward arena fight being unlocked that 99% of players can just breeze through. No puzzling, no real mechanics to speak of, all matchmade with no need for comms. It's really bizarre that they'd lock such relatively mundane content behind such an inaccessible and demanding quest, and say no-one can play the latter (which they've paid for) until some brave souls manage to beat the former. Almost the opposite of this DLC's raid, which in terms of complexity and puzzle-solving must be the easiest to solve yet - I think it's been made deliberately accessible. Yet the last forge - a far more common pursuit than the raid - is locked behind this irrational monster. It's really misguided, I think. I often find Destiny slightly schizophrenic in what it mashes together, but conceptually Bungie's approach to this DLC takes the biscuit.

 

I still can't stop watching it somehow though, Gladd's descent into hallucination and madness. It does, I have to admit, have its own grandeur. If streamers get all the kudos for what they've done, and attract more fans, it won't hurt them in business terms one little bit. So their suffering might not be for nought. It's Bungie who'll take the hit.

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4 hours ago, Hexx said:

Can someone explain that simply to me

 

Sorry, missed this earlier.

 

The details are difficult to explain simply, but the general thrust is that symbols (and letters) exist on the walls and floor of Niobe Labs (and earlier forges) that are only visible when you ADS through specific forge weapons - the bow, sniper and LMG. Each shows a different set of symbols in different places. When you shoot these in a certain order to input the code, if it's correct you move to the next stage.

 

To unlock the last forge for everyone, you have to submit at least seven correct codes - there are seven waves of enemies leading up to this. People have now worked out codes 1-6 but not the seventh. After that it's likely there'll be *something* else (despite Bungie's love of 7s) as the boss we've trailed through the DLC appears in wave 7 then fucks off still alive.

 

The codes/solutions are really obscure. An image comes up on monitors in the room after you kill all the enemies in each wave (which are downright nasty), and that's it, that's your clue. You then have a few second to shoot the right things in the right order to input the right code. If you fail, everything resets back to the first wave.

 

To give you an idea of what proved to be one of the simpler ones (but got everyone hung up for hours), here's what appears on the monitor for code six.

 

vJrFn0ah.jpg

 

Using the following key (which was worked out a while back over time, in connection with earlier forge symbols), numbers were assigned to each gemstone in the above picture.

 

3pmu0WD.jpg&key=94e5694ba3cfd72b1f4c7e6d

The relevant part here is the numbering in the top left image. This assigns each gemstone a numeric value which was translated to the roman alphabet thus:

 

Jl4IrRLh.jpg&key=fece7e6f428d17fb0d10842

 

Brocéliande is the name of an ancient forest in France and this in lore may relate to one of the families who form the lineage of the Black Armoury, so this was seen to be something that could not be coincidental. There followed several hours of trying to input words based on the forest name, but no Os and Cs are available so it wasn't straightforward, and eventually all sorts of kooky and obscure words around bits of lore relating to Brocéliande were being input (it's heavily linked to Arthurian legend).

 

In the end the solution was bafflingly, and strangely, unsatisfyingly simple. The available symbols dotted around the room are:

 

NKH3tLs.jpg&key=d896a1845fc1599ad3566a37

 

And the solution was for all three people to stand on the Hand symbol (on the floor) and shoot the Trees symbol at the same time. Why? Why the fuck not. I mean, yeah, it's trees = forest, but why do all three stand on the hand symbol? Why does it take three simultaneous shots (none of the earlier ones do)?

 

The other solutions are quite unlike that one, but many are even more obscure. The one they're stuck on now is the monitor showing three swords, each looking like it belongs to one of the three different houses of the forges (because one sword looks Norse, one French, one Japanese), and each has a different elemental symbol placed over it. But the room spawns special ammo boxes for this section - which it's never done before - and, of course, no swords use special ammo. So maybe you each use the forge sniper to shoot a symbol that relates to each element of the graphic? Probably not. 

 

It's all like that really. And every time you fail, you have to fight through the previous six levels and input all those codes again to have another go at this one.

 

Gladd's just about to hit 24 hours solid. This has now taken longer than the entirety of the longest blind raid run (Last Wish).

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'I am not quitting now until this is done, by me or someone else. I couldn't go to sleep thinking I'd given up. I'd let myself down.'

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Yeah, fuck all of this. I'll take a Curse of Osiris-level disappointment over whatever the hell this is any day of the week. At least with that, I paid for it, I played it, and moved on with my merry life. 

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