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The Matrix 4: Resurrections - Reeves, Moss and Lana Wachowski Returning! Dec 22nd 2021


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I could go on all day about how broken Reloaded was, and thats the sequel that I actually like. Morpheous went from a wise but naieve prophet figure saving everyone, to a ponderous fat old man. The rest of the ship crews were jobbing actors with stupid names and sunglasses, that one who used to date Morpheous was an idiot, the ships themselves had crap names and looked ridiculous, the CGI in the main scenes was bad even for the time (great ideas and choreography, very poor execution in that Neo looked like a plastic shop dummy and clearly different from Keanu Reeves), the Bane stuff obviously, the total and utter wastage of the Merovingian and the Architect (my favourite characters), the twins only got about 5 minutes screen time, that Zion council stuff was shockingly bad, it was so wrong wrong wrong.

 

 

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Yeah, this is why I was saying somewhere up above that I can't see how the Wachowskis being involved could improve anything. When it came to making the sequels they seemed to have no idea whatsoever about what made the first film so good. The real world half of those films was so badly realised that I was actively rooting for the machines by the end.

 

They couldn't even get the fight scenes right. The exhilaratingly brutal, physical scenes from the original turned into endless sequences of superhuman martial artists ineffectually slapping at each other.

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37 minutes ago, angel said:

I could go on all day about how broken Reloaded was, and thats the sequel that I actually like. Morpheous went from a wise but naieve prophet figure saving everyone, to a ponderous fat old man. The rest of the ship crews were jobbing actors with stupid names and sunglasses, that one who used to date Morpheous was an idiot, the ships themselves had crap names and looked ridiculous, the CGI in the main scenes was bad even for the time (great ideas and choreography, very poor execution in that Neo looked like a plastic shop dummy and clearly different from Keanu Reeves), the Bane stuff obviously, the total and utter wastage of the Merovingian and the Architect (my favourite characters), the twins only got about 5 minutes screen time, that Zion council stuff was shockingly bad, it was so wrong wrong wrong.

 

..And that was the better sequel !

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The first and second films where great. I think that the second one has THE best edited action sequence ever, starting with Neo fighting on the stairs to the cut to the start of the chase sequence with is immense. 

 

The 3rd one though, meh

 

"Got to stop those dickers!"

 

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2 hours ago, pervent aline perio grow d said:

 

..And that was the better sequel !

 

I've not seen Revolutions since the cinema, bar one brief and painful 20 minutes on ITV or something, so my analysis of it would be pretty rubbish, I just remember utterly despising every single aspect of the story. Reloaded tee'd up a load of amazing questions, and Revolutions answered every single one of them terribly. The Merovingian was utterly wasted, the Architect barely had anything to say (the scene where he forces Neo to choose in Reloaded felt AMAZING to me, and still does - it felt like a final boss encounter or something, here is the root of the whole movie personified), that scene where he sits with the (rubbish) new oracle on the bench looking at Sati's sunrise was like bleach in my eyes and bulldog clips on the balls, THIS is the ending? THIS is what you've built it all up for?

 

I still remember the day I saw it, me and my pal at Boldon cinema, during the day, both took a day off for it. We were MEGA excited, when that intro started, where it shows the clock and converts it to all that matrix-speak green stuff, we looked at each other like my god, can you believe this is finally happening?  After revolutions I pretty much went home and threw out my dvd copy of reloaded and swore that the sequels were not canon, and didn't exist to me in any way other than a "what if.." side story. 10+ years down the line, I still love the good bits (burly brawl, end stuff, conversation with the oracle etc), hate the bad bits, and I don't acknowledge the existence of the third one.

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9 hours ago, angel said:

the Merovingian and the Architect (my favourite characters)

Nearly 20 years on and I still find myself quoting these two characters, those scenes were superb. Every time someone says they don't have time, mostly recently that thread in OT, I think... if we never take time, how can we have time? And... I love it, it's like wiping your arse in silk. Brilliant.

 

I learned about 117 new words from the Architect scene.

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This is tinfoil hattery I know but there was a rumour floating about that the original Matrix was a script/ story that was entered into a writing competition held by the Wachowski's after Bound was released and they just nicked it which is the reason the two sequels seem so completely bonkers (and kind of change a lot of things that are outlined in the first).

 

I'm fairly sure it's nonsense but 1 does seem to be really quite different to 2&3 without there being much of an 'official' reason as to why that might be.

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To me it felt like they just had no idea how to do a sequel. The first film felt like the perfect story, the ending was complete and hinted that the world would be different. No surprise they couldn't come up with something decent there's not that much to follow on with without spinning the wheels.... which they did!

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5 hours ago, b00dles said:

This is tinfoil hattery I know but there was a rumour floating about that the original Matrix was a script/ story that was entered into a writing competition held by the Wachowski's after Bound was released and they just nicked it which is the reason the two sequels seem so completely bonkers (and kind of change a lot of things that are outlined in the first).

 

I'm fairly sure it's nonsense but 1 does seem to be really quite different to 2&3 without there being much of an 'official' reason as to why that might be.

 

They had THE MATRIX script ready before they directed BOUND. That movie was designed to show they can direct before taking on the bigger project.

 

I think it's just a second album thing. They spent years thinking about and preparing to make The Matrix then have to do it all again but twice the size in 18 months.

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1 minute ago, Despin said:

 

They had THE MATRIX script ready before they directed BOUND. That movie was designed to show they can direct before taking on the bigger project.

 

I think it's just a second album thing. They spent years thinking about and preparing to make The Matrix then have to do it all again but twice the size in 18 months.

Well maybe I got my wires crossed about when the alleged writing competition was, or again, perhaps it was just urban myth nonsense.

 

It does seem like they were just totally badgered into making it a trilogy at the very least though. If you watch 2 directly after 1, the fact the 'upgrades' just happen immediately to presumably give Neo a reason to actually fight rather than just leap into all the agents or what have you just comes across a bit strange.

 

Also to think that they are apparently upgrades, it makes even less sense that Morpheus holds his own on top of the van for so long after getting a pasting from Agent Smith in 1.

 

I still think that chase scene is bloody great though but 2 & 3 have got really glaring holes in them all over the place if you look at it with any sort of critical eye.

 

Another really weird thing I never noticed until watching some review of it is the way they didn't make the trip to Zion also Neo's first visit - I do like it when sequels have stuff that happen off cam but it just doesn't really work in this as Neo is the 'viewer' who you experience all of the stuff alongside with in the first one and then when you get to Zion he's all 'yeah bov, been here already' rather than using him to show you around.

 

Or maybe it was that it just didn't really make much sense so doing that wouldn't really work.

I never understood why on earth the quite cool looking but hugely impractical mech suit things that were apparently the last line of defence weren't actually much defence against the only thing that would ever attack them. The whole manual reload thing made almost no sense whatsoever either.

 

Sorry there's loads, I'll be quiet.

 

I do think the 'world' does have some potential though.

 

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5 hours ago, b00dles said:

This is tinfoil hattery I know but there was a rumour floating about that the original Matrix was a script/ story that was entered into a writing competition held by the Wachowski's after Bound was released and they just nicked it which is the reason the two sequels seem so completely bonkers (and kind of change a lot of things that are outlined in the first).

 

I'm fairly sure it's nonsense but 1 does seem to be really quite different to 2&3 without there being much of an 'official' reason as to why that might be.

 

Someone sued them for plagiarism after the first film came out, but I think that happens to any successful film. IIRC, there were similar rumours after Good Will Hunting came out - that William Goldman had in fact secretly written the film, and Damon & Affleck had taken the credit. I guess people just want to cast around for an exciting, dramatic reason as to why someone's later work isn't as good as their early stuff, because the actual answer - there are so many moving parts involved in making a film that sometimes it just doesn't work out despite people's hard work and best intentions - is a bit boring.

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1 minute ago, K said:

 

Someone sued them for plagiarism after the first film came out, but I think that happens to any successful film. IIRC, there were similar rumours after Good Will Hunting came out - that William Goldman had in fact secretly written the film, and Damon & Affleck had taken the credit. I guess people just want to cast around for an exciting, dramatic reason as to why someone's later work isn't as good as their early stuff, because the actual answer - there are so many moving parts involved in making a film that sometimes it just doesn't work out despite people's hard work and best intentions - is a bit boring.

That was probably it, least I didn't totally imagine it. But yeah you're right, people love to claim they actually wrote this song, or that film when it comes out and is a big success.

 

The reality that yes, they had loads of time to develop and work on Matrix 1 and then next to no time to work on two back to back sequels they never intended to make is probably more the reason why it totally lost it.

 

I know it's very different but a similar thing happened with Pirates of the Caribbean, I watched the making of the second one (iirc) and was quite surprised to hear the writers admit that 1 was a stand alone film and they had to then try and retcon it to make it into a trilogy, which is why they had to have Keira and Orlando in it, even though their stories had all but finished by the end of 1.

 

It's probably more the fact I enjoyed Matrix 1 a lot and I suppose the inevitable act of Hollywood trying to milk it is where it went a bit wrong and ended up tarnishing the first a bit too.

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6 hours ago, b00dles said:

This is tinfoil hattery I know but there was a rumour floating about that the original Matrix was a script/ story that was entered into a writing competition held by the Wachowski's after Bound was released and they just nicked it which is the reason the two sequels seem so completely bonkers (and kind of change a lot of things that are outlined in the first).

 

The same woman claims that the same script was also the origin of the Terminator franchise and that Neo and John Connor are the same person. It's nonsense that died in court for procedural reasons.

 

Sophia Stewart is the name to google.

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Zak Penn's been on the blower and says it's not a remake or reboot. Those words came from inaccurate reporting. It's more like an expanded movie universe. He cites Logan, Legion and Deadpool's relationship to the main X-Men movies.

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This is what I'm hearing to. Rogue One being the model a lot of execs are looking at right now. New stories with new characters that exist around the edges of existing franchises. 

 

i guess The Matrix is ripe for this. I just can't help but think it would need a FORCE AWAKENS style soft reboot before trying to sell new stories in that world. 

 

‪Something to wash off the sequel stink the same way Force Awakens did the prequels. ‬

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On 3/16/2017 at 17:23, angel said:

I agree, they went way off the rails. I'm not joking in that I think you or I could write a better plot for the sequels.

 

Oh and while we're on, I HATED the city of Zion. In Matrix 1 it was perfectly left to the imagination, but when we saw it, it was absolutely awful. Full of po faced super serious pretentious people, boring discussion, that hideous rave scene, it was so plodding and shit. Whenever I watch it again (occasionally) I skip all the Zion stuff. I found it embarrassing, frankly.

 

Ugh, yeah Will Smiths annoying wife wondering around. Worst casting ever. 

 

I would have liked to have seen more of the 'upgrade' agents trying to take out Neo. Excellent excuse for incredible action scenes. 

 

 

So awesome watching Neo takie out agents with one hand behind his back ha. 

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  • 1 month later...

MovieBob has done an entry in his really good Really That Good video series about The Matrix. It's an excellent breakdown of what about it still stands up (I liked his examples of stories that offer the universal, comforting reassurance that the intended viewer is on the right track), what aspects of it have become more troubling over time (essentially its fundamentally adolescent mindset, and the way this rebellion was misread by people like the redpillers), and how the sequels' big twist could be seen as an attempt to interrogate those misread elements.

 

 

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I had a thought recently........they should look different in the real world than they do in the Matrix.

 

As they live in the pods from being grown/born, they have never seen their own faces to realise a digital version.

 

So really they would have imagined a face and seen it all of their lives in the Matrix, but when they are freed and look in a mirror they would look entirely different.

Unless I've missed something?

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Isn't it the machines that give the humans their digital version? I'd imagine if they can create the Matrix, they can also calculate your looks based on your DNA. Why should their looks be based on their own imagination, was that stated somewhere? Haven't seen it in a while myself.

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i think the quote from Morph was along the lines of "It is the mental projection of your digital self".

 

Therefore you create your image from your mind, not what you gather from physically seeing yourself.

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Ah, maybe as everyone in the Matrix is grown, it's highly likely that they are all clones used in previous Matrix. This being the case, the machines will know exactly what each person will look like and can then show this to them whilst in the Matrix.

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Someone asked the same question as you, and the most widely accepted answer was similar to what I said:

 

https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/76930/how-do-people-in-the-matrix-develop-a-residual-self-image-that-resembles-their-o

 

Quote

The line about "residual self image" occurred when they were in a construct--a small virtual world created by the computers of the Nebuchadnezzar, disconnected from the Matrix. See the transcript here), when Neo asks "Right now we're inside a computer program?", Morpheus replies:

Is it really so hard to believe? Your clothes are different. The plugs in your arms and head are gone. Your hair is changed. Your appearance now is what we call residual self image. It is the mental projection of your digital self.

So I think the implication is that his image in the construct was not directly determined by the programming of the construct, but depended on his own mental self-image, which he had formed from seeing his own "digital self" during his life in the Matrix (which would explain why his appearance in the construct matched how he had looked in the Matrix rather than how he looked in the real world, as Omegacron pointed out, and note that the scriptwriters actually had Morpheus highlight this point in the beginning of the line I quoted). There was nothing to suggest it worked the same way in the Matrix--to speculate, a person's appearance there may have been programmed by the machines to simulate what the person would look like if they were able to exercise their muscles, grow their hair etc., given their genetics and other biological factors present at birth.

 

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Well, doesn't really make a difference whether they're clones or the machines are able to determine their looks through DNA calculation (something I don't think is that unthinkable considering that universe) - either way, the image you perceive in the original Matrix is down to machine programming.

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One of the videos actually mentions that Switch was meant to be a man in the real world but a woman in the matrix (just like how most of us on this forum don't show our real selves I guess) but WB didn't like that idea.

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That's something that's been repeated a lot over the years but I have never been able to source it, as much sense as it obviously makes. The shooting script just calls her a "beautiful androgyne" and uses feminine pronouns. There are fragments of the earlier scripts but none of them feature her as far as I can remember. 

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  • 2 years later...

So the latest rumour doing the rounds - while doing press work on John Wick 3, director Chad Stahelski mentioned the reboot script is still moving forward and being worked on. He also let slip that WB have apparently enticed the Wachowski's to come out of semi-retirement (their production studio and offices had been closed down) to oversee the production (though not to direct).

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