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Watchmen on HBO

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That was a brilliant episode. Have no background of the comics, and only watched the film after the first episode of this, which has helped give some context. Can't wait for the next one.

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31 minutes ago, cassidy said:
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It wasn't confirmed. But he's built a spacesuit and another clone has obviously encountered extreme temperature and froze to death to the point he was cracking and breaking into pieces. 

 

If that's not a vacuum death then what is? 

 

Here's another thing we get no idea of the passing of time in these scenes but it's gone from one candle to 3 candles on the cake. I think that's years passing. 

 

Where could Veidt have disappeared too? 

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

At first I thought you were mad, but it makes sense - and in the ‘next episode’ clip at the end we see...

 

Spoiler

...he seems to be building a space ship!

 

In the first episode we see Dr Manhattan building a mansion out of the Martian soil - later in the episode we’re introduced to Adrian, living in a... mansion. 
 

Could it be that the ‘game keeper’ is Dr Manhattan, Adrian is on Mars and the former is the jailer of the latter? Adrian was a very naughty boy, after all. 

 


 

And Laurie was brilliant. Im starting to feel like this is the best thing on TV right now. It’s spellbinding. 

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Why mad Popo? I knew something was off with the Veidt scenes from the get go.  

 

I highly recommend the Official Podcast once you've seen episode 3. Think Lindelof has this one all planned and is gonna stick the landing.  He just gets this world so well. I'm even starting to think even Grumpy Al would appreciate it. If he didn't abhor DC. 

 

God the brick joke over multiple episodes. 

 

Laurie quoting Rorschach at the end.  She never mentioned him either in the telling of the three heroes joke. Is that significant. Probably. 

 

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On 03/11/2019 at 15:26, K said:

On the squid thing, it works in the comic because it's the kind of insane, out-of-context problem that would be enough to shock two superpowers out of the critical phase of nuclear brinkmanship. But it takes a lot of setting up in the comic too, and the way the film streamlined it was pretty neat, I thought, even though there are a few logical holes in that version. I think I prefer the squid, but I know a few people who got turned off by the inherent ridiculousness of it, so it's not perfect.

 

Thing is, the actual mechanism of Veidt's plan is kind of irrelevant. The important thing that his plan is to commit one of the worst atrocities in history to prevent an even worse one, and that the heroes fail to stop him. By the time they get to him, he's already done it, thirty five minutes ago. Whether he does it through a giant squid or through faking an attack by Dr Manhattan doesn't really matter, which is why both versions work for me. The main thing is Dan's face when he realises what's happened, the insane M.A.D. logic of Veidt's war-crime, and the aftermath with Veidt trying to justify it to Dr Manhattan and himself.

 

 

Im not overly sure I remember correctly but think I don’t agree with K on anything thematically or narratively (might be wrong. Been a long day). But: the thing which irritates me on misreading of Watchmen is of Veidt as gloriously  evil war criminal who killed millions (film reading esp). The entire point of Watchmen is that all of the protagonists and antagonists are fractured, hurt people and that Veidt, seemingly, has the most logical and thought through plan of all of the characters. Giving collateral damage backstory notwithstanding 100%of the ending is that he did the maths and saved billions by sacrificing 10,000.  The entire point of Watchmen is that Veidt is the equally shades of grey hero we should have been looking at, we were just looking at the wrong heroes and, by the way they weren’t Heroes. The doomsday clock blood spot moving past midnight under Rorschach’s corpse is a hell of a clue as game the world moving on .... positively being a mixed word. 

 

The film oh boy cocked that up as a narrative. Haven’t seen tv show yet. Will, but even the name Lindelof scares me so will leave it to see what this place says about the finale (that said Lost series 1-3 were ace).

 

but, basically, Veidt is the hero of Watchmen of equal worth to the rest of them. Will be interested to see what tv show does but I just can’t see Damon getting that. 

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Jean Smart fucking CRUSHED it. It was already a good show but she just walked it and owned the absolute shit of it. Laurie, messed up and cynical as she is, rules. And Jeremy Irons' segments are just so spellbindingly odd and bizarre, I love it. I don't think his jailer is who most folks are assuming it is though - it just doesn't fit with that character to care enough to bother.

 

Edit - to expand on it, it actually makes more sense to me that Adrian imposed these imitations on himself in order to make him try and think creatively outside his limits, keep him on his toes. Remember, it's casually mentioned in one of the other eps that he made some business mistakes and his company was eventually bought out. If he went through a period of doubting himself, it fits that he might try and get the neurons firing again in a less than normal way.

 

The mention of the Russians (would they still be Soviets?) conducting instrinsic field experiments was interesting - just for flavour or will it come to something later on?

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It's plausible that Veidt would do something like that. What I have trouble with is, considering he was  the smartest man in the world who fooled the entire world, does mmaking poor business decisions seem plausible?

 

As for the Russian thing I noticed that line too. Its thematically consistent with the original as well. Could be something that builds over the series? Tick tock! 

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13 hours ago, c-cat114 said:

 

 

Im not overly sure I remember correctly but think I don’t agree with K on anything thematically or narratively (might be wrong. Been a long day). But: the thing which irritates me on misreading of Watchmen is of Veidt as gloriously  evil war criminal who killed millions (film reading esp). The entire point of Watchmen is that all of the protagonists and antagonists are fractured, hurt people and that Veidt, seemingly, has the most logical and thought through plan of all of the characters. Giving collateral damage backstory notwithstanding 100%of the ending is that he did the maths and saved billions by sacrificing 10,000.  The entire point of Watchmen is that Veidt is the equally shades of grey hero we should have been looking at, we were just looking at the wrong heroes and, by the way they weren’t Heroes. The doomsday clock blood spot moving past midnight under Rorschach’s corpse is a hell of a clue as game the world moving on .... positively being a mixed word. 

 

The film oh boy cocked that up as a narrative. Haven’t seen tv show yet. Will, but even the name Lindelof scares me so will leave it to see what this place says about the finale (that said Lost series 1-3 were ace).

 

but, basically, Veidt is the hero of Watchmen of equal worth to the rest of them. Will be interested to see what tv show does but I just can’t see Damon getting that. 

 

I dunno. I don't think I said anything that contradicts what you say, because the ending of Watchmen is supposed to be ambiguous. We don't know whether Veidt gets away with it; we don't know whether Rorshach's journal is believed, or whether it's dismissed as the work of a crank. It's undeniable that Veidt killed tens of thousands of people, but he did it out of a desire to prevent an even bigger disaster - although he can never know whether it worked. Maybe the governments would have stepped down. Maybe Dr Manhattan could have prevented it from happening.

 

At the end, even Veidt isn't sure whether he was right to do what he did - he's seeking affirmation from Dr Manhattan at the end, because he desperately needs to know that he isn't a mass-murderer. I don't think the film or the comic comes down either way, but I think both correctly show the human cost and horror of his actions. You need to be really sure that you're doing the right thing if you're proposing killing thousands of civilians.

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Well true dat. I'd argue that the film going for the bigger better moar deathz approach negated the chop the toe off to save the body hobsons choice the original delivers. 

 

And yes. The end is ambiguous. I've always read it as Veidt trying to play Manhattan, acting the role of a man wrestling with a conciense rather than displaying one. He's as sociopathic as Rorshach just better at seeing the bigger picture. The only moment I ascribe as truthful in him is when he shouts that he was successful. Everything else I see as calculation. 

 

Am keen to see the show I think... Just going to wait until I don't have to rely on Sky. 

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48 minutes ago, c-cat114 said:

Well true dat. I'd argue that the film going for the bigger better moar deathz approach negated the chop the toe off to save the body hobsons choice the original delivers. 

 

And yes. The end is ambiguous. I've always read it as Veidt trying to play Manhattan, acting the role of a man wrestling with a conciense rather than displaying one. He's as sociopathic as Rorshach just better at seeing the bigger picture. The only moment I ascribe as truthful in him is when he shouts that he was successful. Everything else I see as calculation. 

 

Am keen to see the show I think... Just going to wait until I don't have to rely on Sky.

 

Yarr dont

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Anybody listened to the official podcast yet? They're doing one for every three episodes and it's hosted by the guy who made Chernobyl. Anyway, Lindeloff made an interesting comment regarding Jeremy Irons' servants

 

he pretty much says they're not robots and he doesn't like the use of the word clones to describe them either, but they're very much like Veidts pets in the comic

 

Watching this (I binged the first 3 episodes today) has very much made me want to re-read the book, however I've already got three other books on the go right now and there's been a hint it could be my book clubs comic book for our mid-December meet 

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I’ve listened to it and It’s well worth the time of anyone enjoying the series.  
 

@wev it can’t hurt to start it pre the book club imo. 

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The only bum note in what is otherwise perfect TV is Jeremy Irons’ terrible accent. Just really killed those excellent scenes with Mrs Cruickshanks.

 

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8 hours ago, jonamok said:

The only bum note in what is otherwise perfect TV is Jeremy Irons’ terrible accent. Just really killed those excellent scenes with Mrs Cruickshanks.

 

 

Is he supposed to have an accent? I thought he was just doing a fruity voice. 

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I thought he was just doing his normal voice?

 

But yes, he seems to be having a PHENOMENAL time

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On 04/11/2019 at 22:18, cassidy said:

I highly recommend the Official Podcast once you've seen episode 3. Think Lindelof has this one all planned and is gonna stick the landing.  He just gets this world so well.

 

Thanks for this recommendation, didn't even know it existed. As you said, well worth anyone's time, the insight into his inspirations and the process of building the world the show inhabits from the state of the world at the end of the comic is fascinating. And he seems like a really cool guy.

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I wasn't even aware that Jeremy Irons was doing an American accent. I just thought he had a mad voice. I didn't really think of Veidt as having an accent in the original comic, although IIRC he was American. Irons is absolutely nothing like how I envisaged Veidt in the comics, which was superficially charming but reserved and vaguely sinister rather than absolutely crackers, but given that we don't know what's happened to him in the interim, I'm happy for someone to have a different take on the role.

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Another heads up. Lindelof has a 30 minute spoiler free interview on YouTube with Collider. 

 

Some repition of the podcast but also reveals some new stuff. Name drops Jeff Lemire and is wearing a Saga t-shirt. 

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This week looks like confirmation that

Spoiler

Old Ade is in an artificial space Wales.

 

And those creepy babbies formed.

 

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I'm enjoying this, but I'm getting a little bit mysteried-out. I'm sure the programme-makers have answers for everything, unlike Lost, but you can only pile up the inexplicable imagery and narrative enigmas for so long until you start to get secret fatigue. It feels like the actual story and the characters are in stasis until they start to resolve some of these mysteries.

 

For all that, the bit where

 

Lube-Man slides into the gutter had me in stitches.

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41 minutes ago, DonRumsfeld said:

This is great.


I’m just wondering is anyone watching it who hasn’t read the comic?  How are you finding it?

 

Yep, all makes perfect sense so far! 

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Hmmm. A few musings.

 

Spoiler

 

i) Adrian gets a cake every year. He's been missing (now presumed dead) for seven. If we take the view that all his scenes are out of time with the main story, ala Westworld, then I'm guessing he's not going to escape/be released until episode seven, at which point all bets are off. It could also be that Manhatten destroying the buildings on Mars could actually be taking place then once Adrian's out but I still don't think he would give a shit about Adrian, or anyone else at this point

 

ii) The Amazing, Spectacular Lube-Man is probably Laurie's little helper but god knows to what end

 

iii) Lady Trieu and Will are conspiring together, and she's building a big fuck off time piece...a time machine? Could it be they're both trying to right the wrongs of their past (the US annexing Vietnam, the massacre in Tulsa)? And what's the deal with the ancestral memory stuff?

 

iv) Between Will's name and past (Reeves, a baby survivor of the doomed people of Tulsa) and the Trieu intro scene at the start (visiting a kindly childless farmer couple called Clark, who are then gifted a special child), there sure are a lot of Superman nods going on. I'm thinking the meteor crashing on the farmer's land is actually Adrian escaping from wherever the fuck he is though

 

v) Gonna throw out a wild idea here - Trieu is Laurie's half-sister, child of the woman Blake killed in Vietnam for scarring his face.

 

 

Yeah, there are still way more questions than answers but that's okay, the pieces didn't start falling into place until the latter half of the original either.

 

Oh and lol at Petey complaining about American Hero Story being garbage.

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