Kingdom Come: Deliverance - Pure medievalism!

[Harsin]

Oh shit, I'm in time loop aren't I? How did Bill Murray and Tom Cruise get out of them, I forget.

[Simmy]

Are there gays in this game? Or were there no gays in medieval times?

 

Where do we draw the line?

[Zael]

I think that's bingo 

[Simmy]

I'm just saying if you only want to play games that please and represent every corner of society, what games can you actually play? I can't off the top of my head think of any game, or film, or book or whatever else that everyone in society would be happy with. I don't think it even exists?

 

But alas this means very little at the end of the day if the game is selling so well. People on the whole just do not seem to care, for better or for worse.

[ModoX]

It's a mix of people not caring and people not knowing. And now you're just wilfully ignoring people directly responding to your question - no one responded with "he's racist because there are only white people in the game", yet that's the strawman you've decided to knock down. He's racist because he's kept tweeting racist things, over and over! I'm sure we all enjoy games or films or music or whatever that are problematic, I do myself, but that doesn't mean you can't be critical - all people want to do is have a discussion about it and make the issues known, why isn't that possible? Besides, this guy is really really racist! Due to the success of this game he now has plenty of money he could be donating to right wing political parties, that's a bad thing.

 

And please for all our sanity stop saying "gays".

[SweatyTravolta]

Is Simmy a secret gamergater or just bored and drunk? His arguments are similar to those used by the alt-reich and he's referring to a horrible piece of shit making a game that reflects his views, with his slant on history as being "controversy".

[Simmy]

Could you link me to these tweets? I couldn't find them.

 

And what's wrong with saying the word gay or gays? I'm not playing devils advocate on this I genuinely have no idea! Is that an offensive term? I had honestly no idea. 

[Simmy]

5 minutes ago, SweatyTravolta said:

Is Simmy a secret gamergater or just bored and drunk? His arguments are similar to those used by the alt-reich and he's referring to a horrible piece of shit making a game that reflects his views, with his slant on history as being "controversy".

 

Genuinely couldn't tell you what Gamergate means, but I've read the word before. I'm just not all that bothered about an apparent cunt making what turns out to be a pretty decent game which features no people of colour in the year 1403 in some backward village in the middle of Czech republic.

 

Would someone kindly link or refer me to his racist tweets? I'd appreciate it as I haven't seen or heard about that.

[ModoX]

Ok, referring to "are there any gays" sounds incredibly outdated and others people uncomfortably. The word gay is fine, but gays has different connotations.

 

Gamergate was an alt-right movement that pretended to be about ethics in game journalism but was actually about harassing anyone they deemed 'SJWs' and pushing a conservative, right-wing agenda and general hate and intolerance. Daniel Vavra is an outspoken supporter of the movement.

 

Some of his output is quoted here, including some of his response tweets to people challenging the game, and him in his 'Based' t-shirt (you can see why it's an issue if you read the shirt). Another tweet is also here where he posts an image of Martin Lawrence in the Black Knight film and says it's the new protagonist. I don't have another link to hand for it but he did also respond to someone saying "do you want a female protagonist or a better game?" People are also pointing out how this has directly seeped into the game, in its treatment of women and the Cumans as the only non-white representatives. The issues in the game itself may not seem that major, but they're indicative of what happens when shit people make things. We need to give voices to more diverse creators. And saying "oh it's not that bad get over it, only complain about real issues" is simply not good enough.

[Simmy]

4 minutes ago, ModoX said:

Ok, referring to "are there any gays" sounds incredibly outdated and others people uncomfortably. The word gay is fine, but gays has different connotations.

 

Gamergate was an alt-right movement that pretended to be about ethics in game journalism but was actually about harassing anyone they deemed 'SJWs' and pushing a conservative, right-wing agenda and general hate and intolerance. Daniel Vavra is an outspoken supporter of the movement.

 

Some of his output is quoted here, including some of his response tweets to people challenging the game, and him in his 'Based' t-shirt (you can see why it's an issue if you read the shirt). Another tweet is also here where he posts an image of Martin Lawrence in the Black Knight film and says it's the new protagonist. I don't have another link to hand for it but he did also respond to someone saying "do you want a female protagonist or a better game?" People are also pointing out how this has directly seeped into the game, in its treatment of women and the Cumans as the only non-white representatives. The issues in the game itself may not seem that major, but they're indicative of what happens when shit people make things. We need to give voices to more diverse creators. And saying "oh it's not that bad get over it, only complain about real issues" is simply not good enough.

 

I'm going to have to just be perfectly honest then and say this isn't for me, or is bigger than me and i don't know enough to argue about it. I had no idea this ridiculous "Gamergate" argument was raging back and forth about games for a while as I've just been playing them and generally enjoying them. 

 

I will say however that I don't feel uncomfortable playing this game which doesn't have PoC, because it's a really good game IMO and that's all that matters to me. I did also just lol at that Martin Lawrence Black Knight tweet so yeah, this is well over my head now and I'm clearly in the minority here. Just don't find it offensive or bothersome. So yeah, time for me to bow out.

[Tourist]

40 minutes ago, Simmy said:

 

Genuinely couldn't tell you what Gamergate means, but I've read the word before. I'm just not all that bothered about an apparent cunt making what turns out to be a pretty decent game which features no people of colour in the year 1403 in some backward village in the middle of Czech republic.

 

Would someone kindly link or refer me to his racist tweets? I'd appreciate it as I haven't seen or heard about that.

 

And with that, I guess Vavra's work is done. His dishonest bleatings about historical accuracy have convinced you that there is no need to look at the actual historical record to see the many and varied ways humans lived rich and interesting lives in the past, cementing his inaccurate, colored-by-modern-day-prejudice, views as the historical orthodoxy among you and many others.

 

Which is a shame.

[Benny]

What also frustrates me is it feels like such a waste of talent - I genuinely love RPGs with detail like Witcher 3 and games of that ilk, but with something like this the racist stench appears to permeate the fibre of its warped view of history, in what is supposed to be ostensibly an accurate portrayal of life at the time. I would never be able to separate that out from the game while being aware of that rotten worldview being in its core. That quite apart from knowingly putting my money into the hands of such an outspoken racist.

[Opinionated Ham Scarecrow]

9 hours ago, Benny said:

What also frustrates me is it feels like such a waste of talent - I genuinely love RPGs with detail like Witcher 3 and games of that ilk, but with something like this the racist stench appears to permeate the fibre of its warped view of history, in what is supposed to be ostensibly an accurate portrayal of life at the time. I would never be able to separate that out from the game while being aware of that rotten worldview being in its core. That quite apart from knowingly putting my money into the hands of such an outspoken racist.

 

It's not really a waste of talent, because the game is out there, selling well and it's bloody good. Unfortunately discussion about the game has been pretty much shut down on here and resetera because of OUTRAGE from people who likely didn't even know what a Cuman was a week ago.

 

It's a shame you refuse to play the game because of its racist stench Benny. It really is the most important RPG since Witcher 3. There are things it does that are pretty groundbreaking, and the world is a lovely place to explore and get lost in.

 

I did after a 3 hour session wake up this morning and find I'd followed Britain First on Twitter though, so buyer beware I guess.

 

[Zael]

6 minutes ago, Gizamaluke said:

 

It's not really a waste of talent, because the game is out there, selling well and it's bloody good. Unfortunately discussion about the game has been pretty much shut down on here and resetera because of OUTRAGE from people who likely didn't even know what a Cuman was a week ago.

 

 

Could you link a post where someone who was talking about the game was told to stop?

[stefcha]

9 hours ago, Tourist said:

His dishonest bleatings about historical accuracy have convinced you that there is no need to look at the actual historical record to see the many and varied ways humans lived rich and interesting lives in the past, cementing his inaccurate, colored-by-modern-day-prejudice, views as the historical orthodoxy among you and many others.

 

You've absolutely no idea if this is the case or not, just because someone doesn't think this game is that much to worry about doesn't mean that they're taking it as unquestionable historical gospel as a result. The "if you're not with us you must be against us" mindset is getting a bit ridiculous at times, SweatyTravolta borderline accused him of being a fascist now you're telling us how he's clearly going to ignore any historical fact whatsoever pertaining to the times solely because his response to the content of this game is a bit of a shrug of the shoulders.

 

I know I've learned more about the period just from a couple of great posts in this thread (I'd never heard of Cumans before), yet I can't say I'm that bothered about the misrepresentation of the same in the game as ultimately despite any aims of realism it's not a documentary, and whether it can in any way get close to "realistic" it depends on your expectation. It sounds like bar the depiction of Cumans the game doesn't do a terrible job of it, certainly compared to its peers. 

[PaB]

10 minutes ago, Gizamaluke said:

 

It really is the most important RPG since Witcher 3. There are things it does that are pretty groundbreaking, and the world is a lovely place to explore and get lost in.

 

 

Is it as janky as reviews are suggesting? Or do you forgive it because its so good elsewhere? I'm on the verge of picking it up but I don;t know if I can live with the bugs if they are game breaking.

 

[K]

I can't believe people still don't get this. The problem isn't that there are no POC in medieval Bohemia. The problem is that the creative director of the game talks like a white supremacist. 

[Opinionated Ham Scarecrow]

36 minutes ago, PeteBrant said:

Is it as janky as reviews are suggesting? Or do you forgive it because its so good elsewhere? I'm on the verge of picking it up but I don;t know if I can live with the bugs if they are game breaking.

 

 

On PC I've had characters clip into each other in cutscenes, and the screen went completely black on me once (which I fixed by coming in and out of the map). That's it really.

[Cosmic_Guru]

4 minutes ago, PeteBrant said:

Is it as janky as reviews are suggesting? Or do you forgive it because its so good elsewhere? I'm on the verge of picking it up but I don;t know if I can live with the bugs if they are game breaking.

 

 

Can be (XBO here - folk on reset seem to have had more troubles with PC) - the usual problem sometimes with the camera having a life of its own on conversation scenes.  A couple of hard crashes.  One side quest bugged so far in the cut scene - the executioner served up torture on the rack when I had specially ordered burn at the stake.    As some of the more perceptive reviews have pointed out its a game which totters on the brink of falling apart at times.  But when it's good it's very good indeed.

[macosx]

3 minutes ago, Cosmic_Guru said:

 the executioner served up torture on the rack when I had specially ordered burn at the stake.  

 

I hope you sent it back and didn't tip

[stefcha]

 

"I had specially ordered burn at the stake"

[Uncle Mike]

15 hours ago, Simmy said:

What do people want to come out from all of this? There's no chance of a boycott sales-wise I presume. So what should happen? Should he apologise? Or lose his job? Or a token person of colour added to the game?

 

What do people want to see happen?

 

All anyone's said on here, is that they - personally - are either less interested in buying the game, not buying it, or feel conflicted about doing so. No-one's lobbying for a boycott or to convince anyone else not to buy/play/enjoy it. You're arguing against a boogeyman.

 

14 hours ago, Simmy said:

I meant to ask - with all the boycotts and controversy, how is the game doing sales wise? Has this discussion hurt the sales in any meaningful way?

 

Do the general public care about this or is it just a loud minority?

 

Once again, I don't think you'll find a single post here arguing for a boycott.

 

24 minutes ago, Gizamaluke said:

Unfortunately discussion about the game has been pretty much shut down on here and resetera because of OUTRAGE from people who likely didn't even know what a Cuman was a week ago.

 

And you're apparently arguing about a straw boogeyman also. All the discussion here has been logical and without outrage or emotion, excepting (I'd suggest) on the "side" of people who want to play the game. Not one person here has suggested other people shouldn't buy and enjoy this game. Go ahead! It doesn't make you a bad person.

[K]

It's "bogeyman", Mike. FFS.

[Mogster]

I'd feel very uncomfortable playing this, despite loving the genre and being intrigued by the setting. Speaking honestly I probably wouldn't have noticed the lack of diversity had it not been pointed out, but I wouldn't have an issue playing the game based on that alone. Plenty of media suffers from the same problem and I imagine most of it is down to oversight rather than anything malicious. It's something to note and improve upon in future games, not a reason for me to avoid anything.

 

For me, the issue is almost entirely Vavra himself. He's proven himself to be a complete dick, and I don't want to contribute to his success. There's so many games out there, including RPGs I want to play that missing out on this doesn't feel like much of a hardship, and I can play those without worrying about supporting arseholes.

 

Basically, if Hitler managed to make the greatest videogame of all time, I'd probably just not play it rather than try and separate the art from the artist.

[Tourist]

11 hours ago, Simmy said:

 

no people of colour in the year 1403 in some backward village in the middle of Czech republic.

 

32 minutes ago, stefcha said:

 

You've absolutely no idea if this is the case or not, just because someone doesn't think this game is that much to worry about doesn't mean that they're taking it as unquestionable historical gospel as a result.  

 

Yeah, sorry, maybe I was jumping to the wrong conclusion. Maybe this game HAS inspired Simmy to go find out what life was really like in 'some backward village'. 

[Opinionated Ham Scarecrow]

11 minutes ago, Uncle Mike said:

 

All anyone's said on here, is that they - personally - are either less interested in buying the game, not buying it, or feel conflicted about doing so. No-one's lobbying for a boycott or to convince anyone else not to buy/play/enjoy it. You're arguing against a boogeyman.

 

 

Once again, I don't think you'll find a single post here arguing for a boycott.

 

 

And you're apparently arguing about a straw boogeyman also. All the discussion here has been logical and without outrage or emotion, excepting (I'd suggest) on the "side" of people who want to play the game. Not one person here has suggested other people shouldn't buy and enjoy this game. Go ahead! It doesn't make you a bad person.

 

And yet the same people pop up every time people want to talk about the game just to tell everyone else that they aren't buying it as if it's some groundbreaking act of self will or hugely significant dagger in the heart of racism. Rightly or wrongly, no one really cares.

 

 

[stefcha]

4 minutes ago, Tourist said:

Yeah, sorry, maybe I was jumping to the wrong conclusion. Maybe this game HAS inspired Simmy to go find out what life was really like in 'some backward village'. 

 

That's still jumping to the wrong conclusion, just the other way.

[Zael]

6 minutes ago, Gizamaluke said:

 

And yet the same people pop up every time people want to talk about the game just to tell everyone else that they aren't buying it as if it's some groundbreaking act of self will or hugely significant dagger in the heart of racism. Rightly or wrongly, no one really cares.

 

 

 

Actually I'd say judging by the amount of people talking about the problems in this thread people do care.

 

I think you mean to say "you" don't care. 

[Uncle Mike]

8 minutes ago, Gizamaluke said:

And yet the same people pop up every time people want to talk about the game just to tell everyone else that they aren't buying it as if it's some groundbreaking act of self will or hugely significant dagger in the heart of racism. Rightly or wrongly, no one really cares.

 

There'd be a lot more room for discussion of the game if people who didn't care about certain aspects of it didn't keep misrepresenting the views of people who've mentioned them, and repeatedly telling us how they don't care.

[Cosmic_Guru]

44 minutes ago, stefcha said:

 

"I had specially ordered burn at the stake"

 

But I had.  The idea is you consult a "Black book" of record held in the Rathaus to determine, in conjunction with the town executioner, the most appropriate punishment for 3 individuals depending on the egregiousness of their crimes.  (there's another great bit to this quest which I won't spoil here)  That's how I stumbled on a piece of medieval sexism - burial alive + stake through the heart was reserved for women.