Jump to content
IGNORED

Kingdom Come: Deliverance - Pure medievalism!


Talk Show Host

Recommended Posts

19 minutes ago, Cosmic_Guru said:

That's how I stumbled on a piece of medieval sexism - burial alive + stake through the heart was reserved for women.

 

Seems to have been something done in relation to murdering their husbands and/or children, with the male equivalent being broken on the wheel (as mentioned in the excellently titled "Violence in Early Modern Europe 1500-1800"). Bit of an odd sequence, why bother with the burial alive if you're then going to drive a stake through their heart anyway? Just for the terror of it? Grim, either way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Zael said:

 

Actually I'd say judging by the amount of people talking about the problems in this thread people do care.

 

I think you mean to say "you" don't care. 

 

We are talking across each other now. If you read my post again, you'd see that I say I don't care who is buying the game and who isn't. Do I care about the problems the game has? Of course I bloody do, but within the context of actually putting 15 hours into the game and experiencing it myself, I don't really see anything that makes me particularly uncomfortable.

 

Because of Vavra's involvement, there seems to be an opinion being peddled that the game is some kind of racist propaganda. I have to say I really don't get that, but that's cos I'm just playing a videogame full of the usual videogame idiosyncrasies and have no higher expectations.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, stefcha said:

 

Seems to have been something done in relation to murdering their husbands and/or children, with the male equivalent being broken on the wheel (as mentioned in the excellently titled "Violence in Early Modern Europe 1500-1800"). Bit of an odd sequence, why bother with the burial alive if you're then going to drive a stake through their heart anyway? Just for the terror of it? Grim, either way.

 

Yes, very grim.  The case cited in the Rattay Black book was indeed for infanticide, and the stake was there to prevent the accused's return as a Revenant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Gizamaluke said:

Because of Vavra's involvement, there seems to be an opinion being peddled that the game is some kind of racist propaganda. I have to say I really don't get that, but that's cos I'm just playing a videogame full of the usual videogame idiosyncrasies and have no higher expectations.

 

 

 

I think you don't get that because nobody here has argued that the game is racist propaganda. 

 

You mentioned earlier how people were "outraged" in capital letters and now you're saying there's an opinion here that the game is racist propaganda. Are you sure you're not projecting an argument here?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, Cosmic_Guru said:

Yes, very grim.  The case cited in the Rattay Black book was indeed for infanticide, and the stake was there to prevent the accused's return as a Revenant.

 

So if you as your character in game has to assign who gets these punishments, do you have a choice not to? Or is it just pick how these people will meet their end whether they "deserve it" or not? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, stefcha said:

So if you as your character in game has to assign who gets these punishments, do you have a choice not to? Or is it just pick how these people will meet their end whether they "deserve it" or not? 

 

It's a side-quest and purely optional (or possibly the executioner wouldn't be friendly enough to you to award it depending on certain other events - I don't know).  But if you accept the quest you have to read the book and see how people committing similar crimes have been punished in the past.  You then go back and discuss your selections with the executioner and he will moderate those decisions in some cases.  You have to assume the individuals were guilty as charged though, you don't get to investigate their cases or anything like that.  The context of this is 

 

Spoiler

the 3 executions in question are high profile cases and to be carried out by a rival to your contact who has travelled to Rattay for the occasion.  In each case the meat of the quest is in sabotaging the plans of the rival executioner to make him look incompetent in the the eyes of Rattay folk (hence the punishments have to be the ones which best fit the crimes so you know what is planned), so for example his sword blade is dulled, the oil for the pyre is diluted with water.  It's an unusual quest for sure.

 

Thinking about it a bit more, it could be the case the quest wasn't bugged; I had simply not guessed correctly in one instance, albeit the proposed punishment was within the correct parameters for the crime.

 

 

Edited by Cosmic_Guru
Further thoughts
Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, Zael said:

 

I think you don't get that because nobody here has argued that the game is racist propaganda. 

 

You mentioned earlier how people were "outraged" in capital letters and now you're saying there's an opinion here that the game is racist propaganda. Are you sure you're not projecting an argument here?

 

Well Piccolomini certainly did in his second post on the subject, which garnered a lot of support, and rightfully too, because he clearly knows a shitload about the subject.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Gizamaluke said:

 

Well Piccolomini certainly did in his second post on the subject, which garnered a lot of support, and rightfully too, because he clearly knows a shitload about the subject.

 

I've reread his post and I don't see anywhere he talks about the devs using the game to promote a cause. Can you show me where he's talking about the game being racist propaganda?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Am I reading this wrong? I'm full of cold so it's possible. It reads to me like a suggestion that the devs use the game (the historical approach they have taken) to promote a cause (rehash old racist stereotypes to perpetuate a racist discourse).

 

On 2/19/2018 at 13:08, Piccolomini said:

 

No, I'm saying that the historical approach they've taken is identical to long-standing nationalistic and racist interpretations of Eastern European history. That actually makes it more odious in my view - regardless of talking about Vavra's intent - because it rehashes very old racist stereotypes aimed at excluding specific people for being different on ethnic and cultural grounds, which will - because of the antiquity of these stereotypes - confirm many players in those views. It's easy for people in Western Europe to be oblivious to this, because most will never have heard of the Cumans before and be ignorant of the racist discourse that's being perpetuated here, but it's going to be familiar to historians who are aware of the context. And it's a more sensitive topic now that countries like Hungary are closing their borders to refugees based on ethnic and cultural grounds.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think there's a very big difference between falling into an old racial stereotype, and using an old racial stereotype in a deliberately biased or misleading nature to promote a political cause or point of view, which is what propaganda is.

 

I can't speak for Piccolomini but in order to argue that the devs deliberately created this game to promote a political agenda you would need to suggest a lot more.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow, this thread is a fucking goldmine. We’ve had:

 

”Anyone who says they aren’t buying a game is telling me not to buy the game”

 

”All reviews should be apolitical and only cover gameplay aspects”

 

”Just because the creative director and lead writer is a racist and a sexist, it doesn’t mean that the game he wrote and directed will feature anything racist or sexist”

 

”You can’t judge the game unless you’ve played it”

 

”You can’t judge the game if you’ve not also judged any other game that has ever had a similar problem the exact same way”

 

”You can’t judge the game if you use unethical businesses in unrelated areas”

 

”Criticising things is censorship (unless it’s criticising women, black people or anyone who disagrees with you)”

 

”People bought it so clearly all the discussions criticising it are pointless so stop having them but not because I don’t like hearing them”

 

It’s like someone made a bingo card entitled “things utter idiots say”. The lengths people will go to bending over backwards to justify their support of a sexist, racist scumbag and his sexist, racist game whilst also decrying anyone who dares to politicise the discussion are staggering. Just admit that you’ll happily line the pockets of scum and play their misogynistic, racially insensitive game if it’s got a cool clothing system. You’re a white dude, so it’s fine by you and that means everyone else should stop being so sensitive. 

 

Say at what you like about the director of this game, at least he’s honest about what a reductive prick he is. The cowardice from some of you guys, desperately trying to make any excuse for not giving a shit about people different from you, is pathetic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 22/02/2018 at 23:03, Fusty Gusset said:

Bugs aside this outstanding game is a glorious reminder why I game on PC thesedays.

 

I can’t leave it alone.

 

the fusty seal of approval does me.

 

I am being disciplined and not buying or at least opening anything else until I've finished xenoblade chronicles 2, so 2039 is looking free.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Broker said:

Wow, this thread is a fucking goldmine. We’ve had:

 

”Anyone who says they aren’t buying a game is telling me not to buy the game”

 

”All reviews should be apolitical and only cover gameplay aspects”

 

”Just because the creative director and lead writer is a racist and a sexist, it doesn’t mean that the game he wrote and directed will feature anything racist or sexist”

 

”You can’t judge the game unless you’ve played it”

 

”You can’t judge the game if you’ve not also judged any other game that has ever had a similar problem the exact same way”

 

”You can’t judge the game if you use unethical businesses in unrelated areas”

 

”Criticising things is censorship (unless it’s criticising women, black people or anyone who disagrees with you)”

 

”People bought it so clearly all the discussions criticising it are pointless so stop having them but not because I don’t like hearing them”

 

It’s like someone made a bingo card entitled “things utter idiots say”. The lengths people will go to bending over backwards to justify their support of a sexist, racist scumbag and his sexist, racist game whilst also decrying anyone who dares to politicise the discussion are staggering. Just admit that you’ll happily line the pockets of scum and play their misogynistic, racially insensitive game if it’s got a cool clothing system. You’re a white dude, so it’s fine by you and that means everyone else should stop being so sensitive. 

 

Say at what you like about the director of this game, at least he’s honest about what a reductive prick he is. The cowardice from some of you guys, desperately trying to make any excuse for not giving a shit about people different from you, is pathetic.

 

This is the kind of debate killer shit I hate. Labelling others while not accepting any kind of talk around the matter doesn't make you right. It makes you an utter idiot. Not only you have misunderstood most of the posts here and generalized their meanings in order to prove a point but you also believe you are 100% correct.

 

No one in here has supported Vavra. No one in here has said that we don't care about a game being sexist or racist. We are only trying to find out to what extent all these are true and discuss about the entire thing, what actions make sense or not. What history says. How journalists and consumers should react. If the only thing you have to offer is complete ignorance by calling people cowards and, essentially, racist and sexist, you can simply get the fuck out.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Broker said:

 

1. Well, aside from the people who’ve bought the game he will massively profit from sales of and directly financially supported him. And the people trying to shut down discussion of his political views by insisting that this should be a discussion purely about the game, therefore supporting him being a garbage human but it not affecting his art.

 

 

2. Aside from people like Simmy loudly stating that “nobody cares” in the middle of a discussion between people who clearly do care, trying desperately to shut down and avoid any discussion of the obvious issues around the bigot who created the game and the racist and sexist content that has bled through into it.

 

 

3. There’s no argument about the extent. We have proof that the creator is a racist, mysoginostic cunt from his Twitter feed. We have him throwing out “historical accuracy” when he wants to defend his decision to exclude anyone who isn’t a white dude from being represented in the game, but ignoring that same mantra when it comes to fun game design, or not being a cunt who misrepresents history to confirm his bigoted opinions. We have a group who are still persecuted today othered as villains. We have a refusal to acknowledge the presence and existence of other people of colour at the time. On top of that, we have a macho, sexist vibe permeating the whole thing, with women treated like objects. And we have absolute proof it’s all intentional because the guy who wrote the script is a GamerGate supporting cunt.

 

 

4. People who allow racists and sexists to thrive and work in a field they care about without offering resistance, or even worse whilst making excuses for them are racist, sexist cowards. If you have any evidence to the contrary please feel free to offer it.

 

1. People who have bought the game does not mean they support racism and sexism. You are way off for thinking that. Discussing the work of art (in this case the game) seperately from the creator has been an ongoing debate for hundrends of years. The fact that you think you know the answer doesn't mean you do.

 

2. Finding one person who says he doesn't care doesn't give you the right to label most people who are trying to discuss the issue as cowards and racists.

 

3. You are correct to say that we have proof, but you are also wrong to say that everything is proof. You can't claim, for example, that because he says he upholds history he is obliged to make his entire gameplay realistic, thus making the game unplayable or devoid of any unrealistic silliness. You combine two different things in order to make an irrational argument.

 

4. No one really has made any excuses for Vavra. No one. People have tried to find out more about the entire situation and reach conclusions. The things that you say only came into light by discussing and presenting evidence, digging in. You accuse people of having different opinions instead of being blindly convinced 100% by some internet posts, when it's exactly these different opinions that brought in here people with actual knowledge about history to shed some light into facts like the racist representation of the Cumans, for example,  which no one had any clue about.

 

I am never in a rush to label people and reach conclusions this day and age, so discussions like these and different opinions are needed to dig up the truth. You immediately assumed that any kind of discussion and people expressing doubt or trying to understand the impact of KC:D or what their actions should be meant that they were racist and sexist. I do not believe that people in this topic who have bought the game support racism or sexism, because then you would have to say this about many games out there, like GTA or CoD or Japanese stealth open worlds with semi nude snipers.

 

I do believe though that because of this debate people are way more informed to make a decision.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pointless  performance post, but...  I've been playing this on PC at 1440, everything on ultra, locked at 30fps and it is unbelievable at times, even the simplest of journeys from one village to the next can be breathtaking. I set out to find Sasau in the evening (in-game), rode through the night, torch burning, stopping at camps for grub and a break, and caught a glimpse of the monastery as the sun was rising, it was a wonderful experience.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Takizawa said:

Pointless  performance post, but...  I've been playing this on PC at 1440, everything on ultra, locked at 30fps and it is unbelievable at times, even the simplest of journeys from one village to the next can be breathtaking. I set out to find Sasau in the evening (in-game), rode through the night, torch burning, stopping at camps for grub and a break, and caught a glimpse of the monastery as the sun was rising, it was a wonderful experience.

 

From what I know there is no in game option to lock the frame rate at 30. You do it through the config? Does it work ok? Also, gpu?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Talk Show Host said:

 

From what I know there is no in game option to lock the frame rate at 30. You do it through the config? Does it work ok? Also, gpu?

 

You can force it from a console command - sys_maxfps=30

 

It works just fine. I have a 1080.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread has become a microcosm of the GamerGate debate (without the abuse, obviously) a little - though I admit I have skimmed it a bit to catch up. On the one hand people are misconstruing criticism for telling people what they should consume as entertainment, and on the other people being far too aggressive towards others for consuming something despite the flaws.

 

I think for me personally, as soon as I read that the game included alchemy I became less interested. How can you argue so fervently towards historical accuracy on some issues (depiction of women, non-inclusion of non-white people) but not others. Seems very hypocritical.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, John0 said:

 

 

I think for me personally, as soon as I read that the game included alchemy I became less interested. How can you argue so fervently towards historical accuracy on some issues (depiction of women, non-inclusion of non-white people) but not others. Seems very hypocritical.

 

It is jarring, but I guess people of the age did actually believe in alchemy, whether it worked or not? Obviously save potions and the like are going to ruin the immersion nonetheless.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, John0 said:

I think for me personally, as soon as I read that the game included alchemy I became less interested. How can you argue so fervently towards historical accuracy on some issues (depiction of women, non-inclusion of non-white people) but not others. Seems very hypocritical.

 

Alchemy was practiced in the period.   There was (and always has been) herbalism of one kind or another, and then there were the mad ones who thought they might be able to transmute shit (base metal) into gold.  In this you put a base liquid such as water, wine or spirit into a pan, add various herbs (some of which have to be ground), boil as instructed, distill if necessary and there you are - one potion :).  A good way of making coin if you don't want a life of breaking and entering.  It would be more apt to criticise the effects of these cookery sessions in-game, but then again how to explain the placebo in real life?

 

There are notes in the Codex for things like this too.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Cosmic_Guru said:

 

Alchemy was practiced in the period.   There was (and always has been) herbalism of one kind or another, and then there were the mad ones who thought they might be able to transmute shit (base metal) into gold.  In this you put a base liquid such as water, wine or spirit into a pan, add various herbs (some of which have to be ground), boil as instructed, distill if necessary and there you are - one potion :).  A good way of making coin if you don't want a life of breaking and entering.  It would be more apt to criticise the effects of these cookery sessions in-game, but then again how to explain the placebo in real life?

 

There will be notes in the Codex for things you encounter too.

 

I guess I meant to criticise the effects of the alchemy, yeah. Can't you brew a potion that allows you to see in the dark for 10 or something? Seems suspect to scream "historical accuracy" for some mechanics but not for others.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, John0 said:

I guess I meant to criticise the effects of the alchemy, yeah. Can't you brew a potion that allows you to see in the dark for 10 or something? Seems suspect to scream "historical accuracy" for some mechanics but not for others.

 

Yes, there is one which improves night vision but I haven't used it myself.   That's probably not the most far fetched either - e.g consuming one made from cobweb and other things makes you a better all-round sneaky thief :ph34r:.  

 

Having said all that, healing in this isn't as simple as downing a red coloured potion and seeing your health bar refill instantly.  Bleeding wounds require bandaging, poison antidote, and general wounds periods of sleep or a session of relaxing massage down the bathhouse.    Just wearing out your boots sufficiently causes your feet to be damaged.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue. Use of this website is subject to our Privacy Policy, Terms of Use, and Guidelines.