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Kingdom Come: Deliverance - Pure medievalism!


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23 hours ago, Stanley said:

It looks absolutely gorgeous. I love the idea of it but I'm a bit reticent until I see some proper reviews and more impressions. It's £54.99 too on PSN so a bit pricey.

Not only that but it has day one dlc, some maps or something just to get some additional armour. Put me right off.

 

As deerokus said, wait for sale and bug fixes.

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13 hours ago, Talk Show Host said:

The more I read the more I like. Most people I've read also say that the story is solid, and the same applies to writing and characters. I got that impression from the trailers but is there any truth to that?

Certainly according to the extremely comprehensive ACG review above, this aspect is a highlight. He mentions it about 16 minutes in. 

 

(This video) 

 

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The game not only seems to have a good story, but also strong writing and scene direction. I think I will save this for when some more patches are released. In addition, the mods page in Nexus is already full of various mods, so I am pretty sure we will see some great ones in the future that will make the experience trully great.

 

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Talk Show Host said:

The game not only seems to have a good story, but also strong writing and scene direction. I think I will save this for when some more patches are released. In addition, the mods page in Nexus is already full of various mods, so I am pretty sure we will see some great ones in the future that will make the experience trully great.

 

Oh yes, I think modders will have great fun with this title - you could introduce maintenance of your horse for example - or (perhaps) some form of river travel which strangely eludes these folk.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Cosmic_Guru said:

 

Oh yes, I think modders will have great fun with this title - you could introduce maintenance of your horse for example - or (perhaps) some form of river travel which strangely eludes these folk.

 

 

 

I am pretty sure a "Total Realism" mod will pop up, which will make available many different jobs of the era, for example,  more proper human needs, more clothes, etc.

 

Will it be playable? Hell no! But we don't care. :P

 

 

 

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8/10 from IGN http://uk.ign.com/articles/2018/02/17/kingdom-come-deliverance-review

 

Quote

The Verdict

There’s a shining suit of mail underneath Kingdom Come: Deliverance’s authentically medieval grime. Strong characters and storytelling, one of my favorite first-person melee combat systems ever, and special attention given to building moment-to-moment immersion come together as a mighty alloy that ranks among the most unique, memorable RPGs I’ve played in years. While a lack of technical polish occasionally caused me a good deal of frustration having to replay areas due to a bug or poorly-communicated quest objective, it’s the kind of adventure I didn’t hate replaying.

 

and DF verdict on console performance http://And the DF verdict on consoles http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2018-kingdom-come-deliverance-console-analysis

Edited by Cosmic_Guru
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2 hours ago, Captain LeChuck said:

Well for one thing, the lip-sync looks, again*, like a fucking afterthought. All the vids I've seen have mouths moving a little, and nothing like what's actually being said. 

 

*I'm saying 'again', because with a few exceptions, the attention to lip-sync in games that rely on immersion and story appears to have dropped right to the bottom of the list this gen compared to the last gen.

 

Take the Assassin's Creed games. In Black Flag on 360/PS3 the lip-sync is by no means perfect, but it's close enough. Compare that to Assassin's Creed Origins: the lip-sync is, well, non-existent.  You'd expect it to be better, not worse. <_< 

 

I think I wouldn't expect much on the lip sync front from a kickstarter open world ultra realistic and historical RPG with tons of real life characters and big battles. Other stuff have priority. :P I can forgive bad lip sync when the story and the writing is good.

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Yep, it/aspects thereof come up occasionally in the thread:

 

On 24/06/2017 at 19:54, Wiper said:

I backed this on Kickstarter! I rather regretted it when the creative director turned out to be a Gamergater. So it goes. 

 

On 07/02/2018 at 01:54, MK-1601 said:

 

Increasingly untempted to play this

 

 

On 10/02/2018 at 17:58, Wiper said:

 

I backed the game as it sounded interesting, and very much regretted the decision when I saw the developer's responses to anything approaching criticism of their decision to exclude any non-white NPCs, or to avoid the option for a non-male player character, which amounted to decrying any such suggestions as PC, ahistorical attacks on their game and then sitting idly as the arsehole contingent of their fans sicced themselves on said critics. 

 

(the person behind the Twitter account's er, account of matters: http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/post/112158952123/kingdom-come-and-related-debacles-epilogue

 

On 13/02/2018 at 10:00, John0 said:

Don't mean to detract from the discussion about the actual game, but just wanted to post a couple of quotes and stuff from things I've read about Daniel Vavra (co-founder of Warhorse):

 

First, a quote responding to criticism of the lack of diversity in his game:

 

"And they will never be happy. If you don’t have a gay character in your game, you are homophobic, if you do have gay character in your game, you are homophobic, because they don’t like the character. If women in your game look good, you are sexist, if they look bad, you are sexist, if you can fight with them, you are misogynistic, if you can’t fight with them, you are using them as objects, if you don’t have any women, because there is no correct way how to have them, you are misogynistic.

 

It’s a witch hunt and it’s affecting my artistic freedom."

 

Another tweet responding to the same criticism:

 

tumblr_inline_nke85y8ESN1rpr1t4.png

 

Vavra on GamerGate:

 

"“Its all about political correctness,” he wrote to me. “The corruption and ethics are just the result of it. I believe in freedom of speech, even when I hear things I despise. The only way to deal with a bad idea is to provide a better idea and convince people about it with arguments. Nothing good ever came out of censorship. What we saw over the last couple of years is lot of articles in gaming media that were exaggerating some problems to absurd proportions and creating [an] atmosphere of hostility against people who disagree with them. We heard only one side of the story all the time for some reason.”"

 

Vavra on Anita Sarkeesian:

 

Vavra on social justice warriors:

 

"This is the ultimate goal of social justice warriors, destroy all that which is offensive."

 

Honestly, I feel more than a little uneasy supporting a game made by this guy, as much as I think it looks really interesting, unique and exciting in a number of ways.

 

I also genuinely find amusing the fact that the No Black People In Medieval Bohemia thing was repeatedly defended by Vávra as due to it being Historically Inaccurate* and something that was crucial his Important Creative Vision of a Realistic World; only for the game to then include save potions, sex that applies buffs to the player character, and of course functional night vision potions. It's like someone looked at the "Realistic Things Wot Happened" and "Ahistorical, Do Not Use" columns of the game design spreadsheet and mixed them up.

 

*history spoiler: it isn't

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Whoops, I should probably have read more of the thread before steaming in saying “hey guys, apparently that game you all like is racist, I accept your thanks in advance for bringing it to your attention.”

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As impressive as this looks, and Lord knows I love a good RPG dripping in detail, I am not putting my money anywhere near a game directed by someone with such terrible views. You can't stop them being an awful person, but sometimes the best way to effect change is to vote with your wallet. And in the current climate even the slightest message sent that this is not okay is in my opinion not just desirable but essential.

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23 minutes ago, K said:

Whoops, I should probably have read more of the thread before steaming in saying “hey guys, apparently that game you all like is racist, I accept your thanks in advance for bringing it to your attention.”

 

It's a reasonable thing to bring up - it is one of the bigger issues surrounding the game (despite the fact that few outlets have touched upon it in their commentary on the game itself - Waypoint and RPS are the only ones I'm aware of to mention it), and mentions of it in the thread have tended to be infrequent and disjointed, rather than any sustained conversation. Helped by the fact that, understandably, the people most likely to actively criticise those aspects are the least likely to want to actually play the game, and vice-versa, which doesn't really lend itself to sustained discussion within the thread!

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1 hour ago, Wiper said:

Yep, it/aspects thereof come up occasionally in the thread:

 

 

 

 

 

I also genuinely find amusing the fact that the No Black People In Medieval Bohemia thing was repeatedly defended by Vávra as due to it being Historically Inaccurate* and something that was crucial his Important Creative Vision of a Realistic World; only for the game to then include save potions, sex that applies buffs to the player character, and of course functional night vision potions. It's like someone looked at the "Realistic Things Wot Happened" and "Ahistorical, Do Not Use" columns of the game design spreadsheet and mixed them up.

 

*history spoiler: it isn't

 

Can we please not mix general gameplay design ideas with arguments about a realistic world? All games who offer a "realistic world" make game design choices to allow gameplay to work. And, yes, many of those choices tend to be bad. If we went full realism we would never have a game, as a son of a blacksmith would need two lifetimes to afford a brand new set of amor in the middle ages and he would almost never rise to the level of nobility and knighthood in order to influence events.

 

Vavra is an asshole and it has been talked in this thread, his posts have been mentioned and his general stance is dubious to say the least. But there are many more people who worked on this game and, as I have said before, not all of them are assholes. I haven't bought the game yet and Vavra's revelations is one of the reasons that have stayed my hand (nice mediavalism there :p) . But claiming with any kind of certainty that this game is racist -and thus labeling the entire development team- is way too harsh.

 

We shouldn't turn the thread into another Cage hatefest.

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It doesn't matter how many people worked on it: you have to make a stand somewhere, or it is a cancer that will continue to fester in the games industry and will make it less likely for colleagues to call their peers out on it when it appears. And as Wiper pointed out: this is the creative director of the game we're talking about, who has more of a hand in allowing his shitty politics to influence design decisions. Even if they are not particularly apparent in the game, I do not want to put money towards it in the same way that I would not buy the Daily Mail. There needs to be a consequence somewhere for someone espousing such toxic ideas and in this case not putting money towards further projects is the only way to hit them where they can feel it, and potentially make people think twice who they decide to work with.

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It's interesting that the blogger who kicked all this off says that he agrees it's not unreasonable for the developers to use the 'historical accuracy' argument to explain why there are no non-white people in the tiny area of medieval Bohemia - it would probably be relatively uncommon to come across people of colour, and the developer only has so many resources to expend. The game can't be 100% accurate, so you have to make compromises somewhere. The blogger does make the point though that this is a choice by the developers, rather than a direct consequence of the game's setting and locale, and the reaction of said developers and a significant proportion of their fanbase does rather suggest what the rationale behind that choice might have been.

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23 minutes ago, Wiper said:

At no point have I, or would I suggest that, the entire development team is racist. But then, I'm sure that not everyone who works for Rupert Murdoch's varied organisations is a disgusting power-mad toerag, but it doesn't change my stance on buying anything which he puts out and thus presumably supports his world view either.

 

If Vávra were, say, a small cog, then sure, I could view the game as separate from his politics. But when he's both the creative director of the project and co-founder of the studio, that doesn't wash so much. Even if he were 'just' a producer I could perhaps look past it, but he isn't. He's the creative director. He sets the tone, the themes of the game. He decided (vocally) to not include black people because, to his blinkered view of history, they didn't exist in his part of the world. To him including them would be a step too far, an immersion-breaking, ahistorical element ruining his vision as acquiescence to the politically correct SJW masses.

 

The fact that he could do this while still opting for literal magic potions, sex-buffs etc. just highlights his priorities, what is acceptable to his view of fictionalised history, and then makes me question other elements of his design - is the purely villainous presentation of the Cumans ever tackled, or are they just used as the baddies throughout, the oriental invaders to be treated like an orc would in a fantasy RPG? I don't know, but it makes me wary, and unwilling to give the benefit of the doubt.

 

(and either way I can side-eye the idea of a 'save potion' being less incongruous than just a plain old menu as simply a poor creative decision, from my perspective at least)

 

You don't have to give him the benefit of the doubt, but, for me, taking his gameplay design choices based on his views -thus dissing about the shitty realism in the game- is extremely wrong. That is all I am saying. His idea of using a save potion may have nothing to do with any kind of political views or a realistic approach. Maybe he just thought it was fun and silly. As for his other approaches, you go overboard. Of course he is not going to tackle all the issues of the era, of course he is not going to be totally accurate, of course he is going to avoid themes and deeper analysis, of course he will come out as ignorant in many historical elements. What did you expect? Not even high profile period drama is able to be accurate or deep enough most of the times.

 

You don't have to destroy the entire game just to make him look bad. He has done enough by himself.

 

 

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Thing is if we're going stick the boot in to this guy are we similarly going to accuse, say, COD for continuing to depict fictional wars in which the baddies are always non white middle eastern terrorists, and America and Britain are always the heroes? Where's the diversity there? 

 

I'm not saying the director of this game is whiter than white (heh) but just because the game doesn't have anyone black in it doesn't make it racist. I mean is there anything in it other than that which could be deemed racist? 

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8 hours ago, Stanley said:

Thing is if we're going stick the boot in to this guy are we similarly going to accuse, say, COD for continuing to depict fictional wars in which the baddies are always non white middle eastern terrorists, and America and Britain are always the heroes? Where's the diversity there? 

 

Absolutely, that's something I've argued before* (that and the Battlefield series being willing promoters of the arms industry and military industrial complex generally). And the gender/sexuality politics of the Persona games, the treatment of Persians and Spartans in 300, the presentation of women in Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons... I don't take the time to discuss every single issue I encounter, but having spent years studying the way that (ancient) literature reflected and informed society, I'm generally inclined to want to discuss and criticise media for their ideals, particularly those that I see as signal boosting ideas and ideologies that I find troublesome. 

 

Sometimes this is made easy for me when I actually dislike the game in question in terms of pure design, and/or when they're bankrolled by large, faceless companies, but this is one of those cases where I'm left even more frustrated by the game in question otherwise being My Sort Of Thing.

 

Quote

I'm not saying the director of this game is whiter than white (heh) but just because the game doesn't have anyone black in it doesn't make it racist. I mean is there anything in it other than that which could be deemed racist? 

 

I alluded to it lightly above, but the depiction of the Cumans is troublesome. They're the one big non-European aspect of the game (Turkish nomads), and they're consistently presented as monstrous invaders, unstoppable and inhuman, at least at the start of the game. It's entirely possible that, as the game progresses, there'll be some nuance added (you could do some very good stuff, using that to highlight how attitudes towards foreigners are so often driven by hearsay, for example), but as I say, it's hard to give the benefit of the doubt given the creative director.

 

*I can't remember whether on here or not, mind

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So you're judging the game without playing it or seeing how the story progresses etc Wiper? 

 

It's a shame the director has behaved the way he did. He needs to clarify his position, but I think the work should speak for itself and to me not having any black characters doesn't make it inherently racist. 

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15 minutes ago, Wiper said:

 

Absolutely, that's something I've argued before* (that and the Battlefield series being willing promoters of the arms industry and military industrial complex generally). And the gender/sexuality politics of the Persona games, the treatment of Persians and Spartans in 300, the presentation of women in Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons... I don't have the time to discuss every single issue I encounter, but having spent years studying the way that (ancient) literature reflected and informed society, I'm generally inclined to want to discuss and criticise media for their ideals, particularly those that I see as signal boosting ideas and ideologies that I find troublesome.

 

It is fair to take an issue with the above. But going from that to "the Persona creators are sexist" or "the 300 is a racist movie" is a huge leap that make little sense without the appropriate information, knowledge and proof.

 

The same applies to this game as well. Calling it a racist game is way too much in my opinion. Saying that you won't buy it because the creator seems to have ideas that offend you, yes, I can understand that.

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