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Kingdom Come: Deliverance - Pure medievalism!


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10 minutes ago, Simmy said:

I just don't find it absurd, and I'm sorry for that. There's realistic WW2/modern day shooters with regenerating health or health pickups.

 

Which modern day shooter with regenerating health and health pickups would you call realistic? 

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Red orchestra had regenerating health if I recall? The tank battles in that were reasonably realistic if I recall. Don't think there was people of colour in that either but I could be wrong? My point being that it's pretty acceptable to have "gamey" elements in a realistic game to a certain extent to keep it fun and engaging for the player.

 

In flight Sims I presume when you crash you can restart the game? Or continue from a previous save state? Yet I'd still call your average fight sim realistic.

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It's been a while since I've played Red Orchestra and I wouldn't call it realistic. But even so there is no health regen or health pickups as far as I can remember. There is a bandage system that you can use to stop bleeding to death.

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The problem is that the more elements included, the more the omissions will be picked up on, if that makes sense (talking about the flow of day to day events here, not anything else).  You have to eat, but not shit (constipation could arise from a meat and bread diet), you have a horse that never needs re-shodding (?) and etc.  Another thing that perhaps doesn't come across in reviews is that the 16km2 map is sort of isolated really - there is little or no road traffic with horse and cart, no way of travelling along the rivers, a few people walking the roads or standing or begging at the roadside is all.   Buff-giving potions are a fair criticism although herbalism of one sort or another would have been practiced - maybe should have been skipped in favour of using healing herbs alone, but alchemy is a fun little side activity and includes poisons as well as buffs.  It's stuff like being splattered with mud after just a few steps or short horse ride and being continually hassled by the guards if not dressed well or not carrying a torch at night that differentiate this from other games.

 

Some of the side quests in this are very good indeed :).  Working out appropriate jobs for the refugees and determining suitable mediaeval punishments for criminals being the two most recent.   Seems like only women got punished by burial alive + a stake through the heart for fear of returning as a revenant; this was deemed an unsuitable punishment for men.

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14 minutes ago, Simmy said:

My point being that it's pretty acceptable to have "gamey" elements in a realistic game to a certain extent to keep it fun and engaging for the player.

 

Ok so going with this. Why is it ok to bend the rules of historical realism or even realism in general and include health potions or saves etc etc. But when questioned on the lack of diversity in your game point to historical accuracy as an unbending rule that you couldn't possibly break?

 

(This is completely ignoring the fact that historians have come out and said the "historical realism" excuse is bollocks).

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The absence of black characters isn't even the main reactionary ugliness in this game, it's the depiction of history and how it relates to contemporary political attitudes in eastern europe. There was none of that in Red Orchestra because it was a competitive online shooter with no story attached. 

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4 minutes ago, Zael said:

 

Ok so going with this. Why is it ok to bend the rules of historical realism or even realism in general and include health potions or saves etc etc. But when questioned on the lack of diversity in your game point to historical accuracy as an unbending rule that you couldn't possibly break?

 

(This is completely ignoring the fact that historians have come out and said the "historical realism" excuse is bollocks).

Yes but if we're going there and saying it's due to the developer being racist, then Witcher 3 developers must also be racist otherwise they have no reason not to include black characters, even more so considering the world is entirely fictional.

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4 minutes ago, Stanley said:

Yes but if we're going there and saying it's due to the developer being racist, then Witcher 3 developers must also be racist otherwise they have no reason not to include black characters, even more so considering the world is entirely fictional.

 

I was disappointed about that element of TW3 but as far as I can recall I never remember a developer on the team (Not to mention creative lead) coming out and defending it with the historical accuracy bullshit. Ian Miles Chong is the only person I really remember spouting that shit and he was not part of the company.

 

Furthermore none of the CD Projekt Red devs had the history of Vavra. I don't remember the creative lead of TW3 being a gamergate supporter for example.

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Quote

My point being that it's pretty acceptable to have "gamey" elements in a realistic game to a certain extent to keep it fun and engaging for the player.

 

It's also acceptable to have black people in a game set in a period in which there were, er, black people, and still be considered realistic. However, the moment when you angrily state that you couldn't possibly include black people because your game is ultra-realistic, only to then include plenty of clearly unrealistic elements, is the moment that those elements come under increased scrutiny (even ignoring the fact that the game was sold as hyper-realistic in the first place).

 

And, again, all the stuff with the Cumans, which is actually far more heinous but also less obvious if you aren't a medieval eastern European history buff. 

 

14 minutes ago, Stanley said:

Yes but if we're going there and saying it's due to the developer being racist, then Witcher 3 developers must almost be racist otherwise they have no reason not to include black characters, even more so considering the world is entirely fictional.

 

They were (rightly) criticised for that at the time, particularly as the books themselves contain more variety. One significant difference though is that they didn't throw a massive hissy fit, (in fact they outright stated it had been an oversight in their part) and also haven't repeatedly outed themselves as racist arseholes in their day to day lives.

 

(plus, you know, the lack of their plot reinforcing a specific misrepresentation of history centred around of a group of people in a way frequently used by xenophobic groups, which is always a plus)

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13 minutes ago, SM47 said:

The absence of black characters isn't even the main reactionary ugliness in this game, it's the depiction of history and how it relates to contemporary political attitudes in eastern europe. There was none of that in Red Orchestra because it was a competitive online shooter with no story attached. 

 

Examples?  other than possible stereotyping of Cumans?

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20 minutes ago, Cosmic_Guru said:

The problem is that the more elements included, the more the omissions will be picked up on, if that makes sense (talking about the flow of day to day events here, not anything else).  You have to eat, but not shit (constipation could arise from a meat and bread diet), you have a horse that never needs re-shodding (?) and etc.  Another thing that perhaps doesn't come across in reviews is that the 16km2 map is sort of isolated really - there is little or no road traffic with horse and cart, no way of travelling along the rivers, a few people walking the roads or standing or begging at the roadside is all.   Buff-giving potions are a fair criticism although herbalism of one sort or another would have been practiced - maybe should have been skipped in favour of using healing herbs alone, but alchemy is a fun little side activity and includes poisons as well as buffs.  It's stuff like being splattered with mud after just a few steps or short horse ride and being continually hassled by the guards if not dressed well or not carrying a torch at night that differentiate this from other games.

 

Some of the side quests in this are very good indeed :).  Working out appropriate jobs for the refugees and determining suitable mediaeval punishments for criminals being the two most recent.   Seems like only women got punished by burial alive + a stake through the heart for fear of returning as a revenant; this was deemed an unsuitable punishment for men.

 

We shouldn't go overboard though. Things that could add to a realistic world are probably missing due to budget and time contstraints as well.

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Just now, Talk Show Host said:

We shouldn't go overboard though. Missing things that could add to a realistic world are probably missing due to budget and time contstraints.

 

Agreed.  I'm not fussed at all - I think there are sufficient systems in this as it stands and modders will likely add more in due course.

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6 minutes ago, Zael said:

 

I was disappointed about that element of TW3 but as far as I can recall I never remember a developer on the team (Not to mention creative lead) coming out and defending it with the historical accuracy bullshit. Ian Miles Chong is the only person I really remember spouting that shit and he was not part of the company.

 

Furthermore none of the CD Projekt Red devs had the history of Vavra. I don't remember the creative lead of TW3 being a gamergate supporter for example.

I get this but it doesn't excuse it. If we're going to hold one developer to extreme levels of scrutiny then we do it to them all. Ignorance is no excuse.

 

Perhaps @Cosmic_Guru could confirm but I've heard the game has a story which deals with anti semitism. Is this true, and how is it handled?

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2 minutes ago, Stanley said:

I get this but it doesn't excuse it. If we're going to hold one developer to extreme levels of scrutiny then we do it to them all. Ignorance is no excuse.

 

Perhaps @Cosmic_Guru could confirm but I've heard the game has a story which deals with anti semitism. Is this true, and how is it handled?

 

I'm holding them to different levels of scrutiny because the developers had acted differently. 

 

TW3 did not have a gamergater as a creative lead who doubled down on a bullshit historical accuracy excuse when pushed and who also misrepresented a people that suffered racial prejudice by turning them into the villains of the game.

 

If The Witcher 3 team did all that then you're right I would hold them up to the same levels of scrutiny. 

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1 minute ago, Stanley said:

I get this but it doesn't excuse it. If we're going to hold one developer to extreme levels of scrutiny then we do it to them all. Ignorance is no excuse.

 

Perhaps @Cosmic_Guru could confirm but I've heard the game has a story which deals with anti semitism. Is this true, and how is it handled?

 

Agreed. No more excuses.

 

I haven't yet encountered this quest.  Anti-semitism was something I thought might be present in some form in this game given the setting (and the restrictions placed on Jews, their distinctive clothing etc etc).  

 

 

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Just now, Zael said:

 

I'm holding them to different levels of scrutiny because the developers had acted differently. 

 

TW3 did not have a gamergater as a creative lead who doubled down on a bullshit historical accuracy excuse when pushed and who also misrepresented a people that suffered racial prejudice by turning them into the villains of the game.

 

If The Witcher 3 team did all that then you're right I would hold them up to the same levels of scrutiny. 

I don't care what your reasons are. You can't pick and choose who you level criticism at based on the work itself. 

 

So Witcher 3 didn't have black people in it because of an oversight. That's fine then, no racism there, no lack of diversity at all.

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6 minutes ago, Stanley said:

I don't care what your reasons are. You can't pick and choose who you level criticism at based on the work itself. 

 

So Witcher 3 didn't have black people in it because of an oversight. That's fine then, no racism there, no lack of diversity at all.

 

Wait what? I'm telling you that the criticism levelled at the game is about more than one reason but you don't care about that? In what world do we have to pick only one reason to critique something?

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Just now, Zael said:

 

Wait what? I'm telling you that the criticism levelled at the game is about more than one reason but you don't care about that? In what world do we have to pick only one reason to critique something?

The main criticism is about the lack of black people, this is how Vavra got himself in the shit to begin with through his responses which many deemed racist.

 

To me though not having black characters due to an oversight is just as bad and the same. Black people were literally an oversight to CD projekt Red but because they don't have a gobshite producer they get away with it.

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Just now, Stanley said:

The main criticism is about the lack of black people, this is how Vavra got himself in the shit to begin with through his responses which many deemed racist.

 

To me though not having black characters due to an oversight is just as bad and the same. Black people were literally an oversight to CD projekt Red but because they don't have a gobshite producer they get away with it.

 

I don't think you can look at it in isolation. There are many problematic things about the game which have been pretty clearly outlined in this thread. The lack of people of colour being included is one of them. Another would be that the lead dev has supported gamergate and has said very problematic things. Another would be the misrepresentation of a culture that Piccoliomi outlined for us a while back.

 

The reason this game is getting so much negativity is because it did far more than simply not include black people in their game.

 

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Just now, Simmy said:

Was there any outcry over that at the time? I was a lot younger and didn't pay any attention to it if there was.

Yes there was, but then Tolkien himself was accused of being racist and it's said many white supremacists are attracted to his works.

 

Wouldn't have hurt Jackson to include a more diverse cast.

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I think there's a discussion of stupidity versus malice here. Any form of prejudice deserves condemnation but prejudice enacted on purpose should be treated as more immediately alarming and worthy of it than prejudice enacted through thoughtlessness.

 

Pointing to other games and saying "what about them?" detracts from the interesting discussion about this game. What makes this unique is the outspoken views of the director and the deliberate creative choice to use historical accuracy as the reason behind certain elements.

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1 minute ago, Simmy said:

Was there any outcry over that at the time? I was a lot younger and didn't pay any attention to it if there was.

 

There would probably have been an outcry if the creative director of the Lord of the Rings games, Peter Jackson, and/or JRR Tolkien made public statements that suggested they were massive racists.

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