Jump to content
IGNORED

Joker origin film - Joaquin Phoenix Confirmed


Don Rosco
 Share

Recommended Posts

Watched this last night. I didn't really like it. I can see why people do, but can also see why its divided opinion so much. 

Sorry if this has already been covered, I haven't been back and read the spoilers yet, i tried to avoid as much press about it as I could since I saw the first trailer months ago. I don't normally make a post if I don't like a film, as nobody wants people pissing on their chips. But anyway.

 

Spoiler

For several reasons. 

 

As a film, its a painful watch of an abused, mentally ill man's descent into madness and torment after his support network is pulled away by an uncaring state. And it's done reasonably well, but not like anything we haven't seen before. He doesn't really do anything to become 'The Joker', its almost an accident. You could strip away the references to Wayne, Arkham and Gotham and this film would stand as a middle of the road tribute to Taxi Driver or King of Comedy (2 films rightly mentioned a lot around this. It's almost like someone couldn't get the script made and so crossed out "New York" and put in Gotham instead and now it's a superhero film. It feels like they were aiming for Fight Club in there as well and missed.

 

It was all a bit predictable, the gun, the sacking, the guys on the train, the imagined girlfriend relationship, his mum's madness, the half brother red herring, the stabbing, shooting DeNiro, they were just really poorly telegraphed a mile away. There wasn't really a single surprise. 

 

I didn't like the way they retconned Wayne to be a libertarian, "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" kind of guy, while he should normally be a nice philanthropic doctor. Made out that he deserved it, which he just doesn't, that's the whole point of Batman's origin, the man that gave Bruce his moral code. His love of Gotham, and it's people. The Bruce that is the son of this Thomas would be more likely to say "Fuck those guys" and close down some hospitals. 

 

Once again Martha Wayne only exists as a vector for Pearls. 

 

Phoenix doing ALL OF THE ACTING. Exhausting.

 

Gary Glitter - now that's just taking the piss. 

 

The most Joker like bit of the whole film was the "You wouldn't get it" at the very end followed by the chase, but it seems almost at odds with the guy that up to then has murdered a few people that "deserve it" to just indiscriminate Hannibal Lectering.

 

That said, it's the best of the current crop of DC films, but that's only because they are mainly awful. WW aside maybe. 

 

Though I thought the way they recreated grimy 80's NYC/Gotham was amazing, it looked really good. The score was a bit heavy handed, like they wanted the oppressive dissonance of the Bale/Nolan films but overdid it.

 

I think I prefer the Joker has no Origin approach of The Dark Knight.

 

I'm glad I went to see it, but I've absolutely no interest in seeing it again. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thing that puzzled me was the fact that Marc Maron was third or fourth in the credits, but had about four lines of dialogue and appeared in two scenes (one where he was out of focus in the background). They must have cut his role down a fair bit (which might explain why he was having a go at Todd Philips the other day).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Ran said:

This was a decent watch but I'd have preferred it as it's own thing rather than a Batman universe feature.

  Reveal hidden contents

I think the Joker works better without any explicit backstory (as exploited in the Dark Knight) so I had that bias going into this and it didn't convince me it adds anything to the character. That said there's plenty of praise going around to show that's probably more my preference than anything else so fair enough.

I thought the weakest elements were those that tied into the Batman mythology and were even a bit trite and distracting (Joker is Batmans illegitimate brother! No he isn't! Or is he? Joker is responsible for the Batman's creation himself!!). I think it was unnecessary and overwrought in destiny)

 

Even so it was still gripping and one of my better trips to the cinema in recent times!

 


Yeah it was a smart character study that needn’t have had anything to do with Batman at all. But it’s pretty cool that it does.

 

Imagine a rebooted DC Universe with this as the beginning. If they could maintain the quality that would be pretty great.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We saw this today, I thoroughly enjoyed it, my OH didnt really enjoy it as much, though we both agreed Phoenix was excellent.

 

I did question throughout whether

it was all made up, it was obvious his relationship with his neighbour was as they broadcasted that pretty openly, but by them doing that I did begin to wonder how much of everything else we were seeing was the truth, especially as everything was told from Arthur's perspective

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just watched this and it's good buuuuuuut I'm not sure I love it quite as much as some in here. It's definitely good and the best DC movie since nolan but I don't know if it should have just been a taxi driver/ falling down/ king of comedy movie rather than specifically a batman related movie. 

 

I also think that with anyone other than Joaquin and the powerful score I don't think it would be anywhere near as good as it was. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, b00dles said:

I just watched this and it's good buuuuuuut I'm not sure I love it quite as much as some in here. It's definitely good and the best DC movie since nolan but I don't know if it should have just been a taxi driver/ falling down/ king of comedy movie rather than specifically a batman related movie. 

 

I dont doubt that's where it start but attaching the Joker confirmed commercial success. Had this not had the Joker attached it would maybe have found success at home, but not at the cinema.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, mansizerooster said:

 

"If it didn't have the stuff in it that makes it good, then it wouldn't be as good"

Well yeah but no but yeah, lead actor and score are easily changed and there are hundreds of other ways for a film to be bad or good but I see your point. I just meant to me those two were doing a lot of the heavy lifting. 

1 minute ago, Stigweard said:

 

I dont doubt that's where it start but attaching the Joker confirmed commercial success. Had this not had the Joker attached it would maybe have found success at home, but not at the cinema.

And I obviously understand this also but as others have said, the actual batman parts were almost a detriment. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Spoiler

Best bit was young Batman sliding down the Batpole.

Seriously though, I really loved this movie. Saw it in 70mm film print which fit the time period wonderfully. All the Taxi Driver stuff worked for me much more than in You Were Never Really Here. Lots of great little moments that I’m sure I’ll be thinking on for a while. Maybe film of the year stuff!

 

Only bit I hated was the 

Spoiler

over explanation that his relationship with the girl from Atlanta was in his head - she sold the scene with him in her apartment so well that the follow up scenes were patronising tbh. It’s a personal bugbear.

 

Everything else tho was on point!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 15/10/2019 at 15:46, K said:

(which might explain why he was having a go at Todd Philips the other day).


https://www.slashfilm.com/marc-maron-response-todd-phillips/

 

I’m glad he pushed back on Philips for that, and he’s right too. Anyone know on which episode of the podcast he did that on? I listen to a lot of WTF but not nearly every one. 
 

As for whether a lot of his part was cut, he always said he had a tiny role with minimal shooting time, so it might not have been. Who knows though. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For sure, but also in that scene

Spoiler

it seems like Joker was speaking for philips when he said that humour was subjective. I do think though, if that was philips' intention, he made a right bags of his argument. Earlier in the thread I said philips' was a pretty clumsy director at times, and no more so than in that scene. It was a little heavy handed, although still very impactful and tense. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Don Rosco said:


https://www.slashfilm.com/marc-maron-response-todd-phillips/

 

I’m glad he pushed back on Philips for that, and he’s right too. Anyone know on which episode of the podcast he did that on? I listen to a lot of WTF but not nearly every one. 
 

As for whether a lot of his part was cut, he always said he had a tiny role with minimal shooting time, so it might not have been. Who knows though. 


it's at the beginning of the Danny DeVito episode.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 16/10/2019 at 13:23, b00dles said:

Well yeah. 

Although FFS;

  Reveal hidden contents

I NEVER WANT TO SEE THOSE PEARLS GO FLYING AGAIN

 

 

 I think 

Spoiler

A cut away when the guy followed them into the alley followed by that show of Bruce over his dead parents several minutes later would have been enough.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Felt like there were 

Spoiler

DC universes events happening outside of Joker’s personal experience and further gave this its own identity by way of contrast.

 

Having let it ruminate for a bit I’m not sure if I’m satisfied with only the institution scene at the end being reality with the rest of it being in his mad head. Was the psychiatrist the same actress as his social worker? 

 

I do do like the little Harley Quinn hints with his young mother and the ending leaving the door open for her introduction in the institution. At least I think that’s how they meet, I’ve never been that up on the Joker from the comics.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 15/10/2019 at 11:44, Ran said:

This was a decent watch but I'd have preferred it as it's own thing rather than a Batman universe feature.

  Hide contents

(Joker is Batmans illegitimate brother! No he isn't! Or is he? Joker is responsible for the Batman's creation himself!!).

 

 

You ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I saw this yesterday, and I think I echo most of the likes/dislikes in the thread:

 

Disliked the Batman bits (both Crime Alley and mebbeBrother), agree that the Zazie Beetz relationship fantasty was overexplained. Pedestrian direction. But did love the story crafting and ambiguity.

.

 

As a lifelong Batman fan (easily my favourite superhero universe), I initially pushed back on a few things:

 



Joker becoming a populist symbol. Joker being sympathetic when he should be a 2-dimensional embodiment of chaos. The dancing. The obvious flipping of who the traditional 'good' and 'bad' guys are in Gotham.

 

But that was just me being a stupid fuddy-duddy. This is an ideal reinvention for a more considered time, and simply writing a 'crazy' character today would seem lazy. The various elements that built up to Joker's coming-out party mesh perfectly with the pop-culture-obsessed character he would become, and I could easily watch TDK straight after and imagine it's this guy with ten years under his belt.

 

I'm not usually a fan of stunt dieting in Hollywood, but Phoenix's uneasy appearance was really grotesque at times, and is a nice cosmic counterpoint to the famed stunt dieting of Christian Bale.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well yes. Because the central conceit would no longer make sense. It's not a twist on something you're familiar with in your scenario.

 

But then, if the Avengers was stripped of its licenses, it probably wouldn't have held together well either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think you're going to remain unsatisfied as long as you've arbitrarily decided this angle.

 

This film is a new take on a well-known, frequently used, interestingly-interpreted character that has been part of the pop culture canon for half a century.

 

Everything about it is predicated on this. Everbody knows Joker. The license is utterly crucial.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue. Use of this website is subject to our Privacy Policy, Terms of Use, and Guidelines.