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Let's talk about Loot Boxes

Harsin

By Harsin,
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BeeJay

BeeJay

Posted
Posted
17 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Surely the beginning of the end? They may not lose too much sleep over Belgium, but if the UK and US (who seem to be moving the same way) both ban them, is it worth bothering?

 

Multi-billions says to me that it probably is worth their time. I can't see anything but an escalating arms race on this topic, with the publishers constantly arguing that they are working within the rules by slightly tweaking the methods.

 

For example, fifa uses (used to at least) draft tokens which you can buy to play in a draft tournament where the better you do, the more reward you get. Of course, the rewards are packs and draft tokens can be bought for real money. So real money -> middle man disguise -> loot boxes.

 

Some of the big fifa streamers already use draft tokens as a better investment of real money, rather than buying packs, because they are good enough to consistently win matches in draft.

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df0

df0

Posted
Posted

I find it difficult to blame the parent for this. The two mentioned games - Minecraft and Roblox - aim at a younger audience, which parent in their right mind sees those games, read the description and thinks "how to I stop my child from spending any real money on this game".

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Jerec

Jerec

Posted
Posted
55 minutes ago, df0 said:

I find it difficult to blame the parent for this. The two mentioned games - Minecraft and Roblox - aim at a younger audience, which parent in their right mind sees those games, read the description and thinks "how to I stop my child from spending any real money on this game".

 

I agree.

 

Also she said she put her card details in and didn't expect them to be saved.

 

There should be explicit messages or functions in the Settings area that makes you confirm at least twice that you card details will be saved and could be used for future purchases and also if those details aren't password protected.

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Qazimod

Qazimod

Posted
Posted

I think Jim Sterling said something in a video about FUT along the lines of better cautions and warnings being needed with these risks, and how it's nuts that something like a PEGI 3 game carries its own financial dangers. It would be cool to see something implemented at a console OS level that lays bare this kind of stuff for parents. I don't know how it would work though - maybe you install a game and then a pop-up asks you to add it to an "allowed" list where it shows games you've allowed users to buy DLC for. Maybe go further and let users set a maximum budget either across the whole "allowed" list or on a per-game basis. The "invisibility" of these purchases - until it's too late - is one of the most troubling things about these stories.

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carlospie

carlospie

Posted
Posted

The thing I always wondered is, are the contents locked in at the point you buy the pack or when you open it? Eg if I preorder fifa, collect a pre order pack and then don’t open it, are the contents already in it and don’t change, or is it dictated at the point you open it? 

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BossSaru

BossSaru

Posted
Posted

Three (what should be) simple policies would support this out:

 

Firstly, a console-wide block on in-game purchases, which can be activated through the dashboard.

 

Secondly, 2FA on all purchases made.

 

Thirdly, and this is the most important. An upper limit for in-game purchases for each game, set at a fixed amount (maybe £40, for the sake of this debate). Once that limit is reached, the player gets access to everything that paid-for loot boxes can contain. Characters, outfits, the lot. Loot boxes could still exist, but they could not become a bottomless pit into which addicted gamers could end up pouring money in the hope of getting an elusive item. And there is no reason why developed can not include loot boxes with rare items that are awarded on in-game activity, rather than for cash.

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Jerec

Jerec

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, carlospie said:

The thing I always wondered is, are the contents locked in at the point you buy the pack or when you open it? Eg if I preorder fifa, collect a pre order pack and then don’t open it, are the contents already in it and don’t change, or is it dictated at the point you open it? 

 

If it’s supposed to be a normal Gold Rare Pack like the Ultimate Edition offers, I would bloody hope so. Also if they were predetermined I’m sure people would eventually work out they are getting the same as other people and complain.

 

I believe (again, hope!) there are certain types of cards that are randomly chosen from a varied range.

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carlospie

carlospie

Posted
Posted
31 minutes ago, Ballzzie said:

 

If it’s supposed to be a normal Gold Rare Pack like the Ultimate Edition offers, I would bloody hope so. Also if they were predetermined I’m sure people would eventually work out they are getting the same as other people and complain.

 

I believe (again, hope!) there are certain types of cards that are randomly chosen from a varied range.

 

I always wonder if they have pre allocations so the market isn’t flooded e.g each week only 1000 Ronaldos can get pulled and once the quota is hit they remove them. 

 

I seem to recall a scandal in Fifa 14 where not one person ever packed a pele in the whole of the games lifespan, resulting in EA injecting 4 into the transfer market via sellers 

 

https://youtu.be/dOJdVJMK_7w

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df0

df0

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, BossSaru said:

Secondly, 2FA on all purchases made.

Sounds simple, but I do not think manufacturers can actually enforce that. A manufacturer can warn people over and over, tell them to not use 0000 as their unlock code, inform them the name of their child is not a good password, tell them their children now have access to the credit card they just added, they'll do all of the above after they clicked "I agree" a handful of times.

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SimonC

SimonC

Posted
Posted
15 hours ago, Ballzzie said:

A simple required password is all it needs, it can't be that hard to force this onto games and systems that allow purchases surely?

 

Xbox already has this feature. My card details are saved but every time I attempt to make a purchase I’m asked for a 6 digit pin. I don’t think that was the default though and I had to go into settings to enable it. 

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Qazimod

Qazimod

Posted
Posted

A small development was made yesterday:

 

 

Quote

"In-Game Purchases (Includes Random Items)" designation created in response to concerns of players, not parents

 

The ESRB today introduced a new ratings designation to indicate when a game has randomized elements among its in-game purchases. The new designation, or "interactive element" as the rating board calls it, will be assigned to any title with an in-game offer to spend real money on something when players won't know exactly what they'll receive for their money.

 

While the move is clearly targeted at loot boxes, the phrasing is intended to cover card packs, prize wheels, and other such mechanics. This is the ESRB's second time adapting its system due to criticism of loot boxes and other randomized monetization. The group's first attempt to address concerns came a little over two years ago, when it introduced a designation that a game features in-game purchases.

 

The ESRB said in its announcement that this second move has been made primarily in response to feedback from players, not from parents. "According to research, parents are far more concerned about their child's ability to spend real money in games than the fact that those in-game purchases may be randomized," the group said. "This data helped to inform the introduction of the In-Game Purchases Interactive Element. That being said, since adding the In-Game Purchases notice to ratings assigned to physical games many game consumers and enthusiasts (not necessarily parents) have reached out to us asking the ESRB to include additional information to identify games that include randomized purchases."

 

GI

 

I mean, it's something... but it still feels a bit half-hearted. "Includes Random Items" doesn't mention that there might be duplicates, or items that are of no use (e.g. unlocking accessories for a character you don't play as.)

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Liamness

Liamness

Posted
Posted

Yeah, bit odd that they're not specifically recognising the way the random chance element could specifically exploit children. Or adults with poor reasoning skills / addictive personalities.

 

Anyhoo, here's a petition to get loot boxes classes as gambling:

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300171

 

I don't think it's the first. But thought it wouldn't hurt to share.

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BeeJay

BeeJay

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, ZOK said:

Hmm...they’ve ‘called for them to be regulated as gambling‘, which is a lot less hopeful in my opinion.

 

I don't understand much about gambling law, why does regulation make you a lot less hopefull?

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womblingfree

womblingfree

Posted
Posted

Pitching gambling at kids is illegal. This should lead to an age limit of 18 on all games containing loot-boxes. Bet companies will already be working out ways around this.

 

What happens to a game like Crash Racing that has loot-boxes added after release? Either stick an age-restriction at release or take a hefty fine and withdrawal of un-certified copies hopefully.

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ZOK

ZOK

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, BeeJay said:

 

I don't understand much about gambling law, why does regulation make you a lot less hopefull?


Because mdn2 has said they had been ‘ruled’ to be gambling, which sounded legislative, but the article said the Lords are calling for them to be regulated as gambling, which sounds more like it is an aspiration.

 

I’ve no confidence in this government to do the right thing about anything.

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BeeJay

BeeJay

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, ZOK said:


Because mdn2 has said they had been ‘ruled’ to be gambling, which sounded legislative, but the article said the Lords are calling for them to be regulated as gambling, which sounds more like it is an aspiration.

 

I’ve no confidence in this government to do the right thing about anything.

 

Ah, ok, so it is currently more of a suggestion than a law?

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