Let's talk about Loot Boxes

[Harsin]

I don’t like Amiibos, but crucially it doesn’t have the gambling aspect. It’s an upfront cost for a product where you know exactly what you'll receive. You could buy the equivalent in loot boxes to the entire Amiibo range and never get the actual item you want.

 

Worth noting for people who are saying that Nintendo are the last hold outs, that they have already done what are essentially loot boxes in Fire Emblem Heroes. At least it’s a free game and they actually publish the percentage chances of what you'll get I suppose.

[Talk Show Host]

1 hour ago, Stanley said:

What angers me is that the press will happily run stories about games being too violent and even leading to violent behaviour  (with no actual evidence) and other such bollocks, yet when games companies are deliberately targeting kids or vulnerable people like this it largely goes ignored. 

 

I have said it before, our industry doesn't have any real journalism. Instead of breaking down stuff like that and calling out companies, reporting on them with proof and testimonies, uncover the scandals of overworking and crunch abuse etc, all we are receiving are glorified marketing teams. And that's because our "press" is too depended on the ad revenue of these companies. It's a completely insane business model. 

[Stanley]

Totally agreed. Our news outlets are basically PR for games companies. There's good content in there but I do get fed up of a million videos about Shadow of War.

[TehStu]

So why do we have loot boxes? Is the scale of modem development for big titles requiring a better, long term return in the form of micro transactions? Consumer expectation on content driving up costs? Games not selling as well in general? Or are we increasing the value of someone's stock?

[Stanley]

The latter. 

 

CDPR proved without doubt that you can make the biggest, most expansive, technically demanding games and make a profit without resorting to pre order bonuses, loot boxes and any other bollocks these companies use. It's all about  shareholder value.

[deerokus]

Everyone else has nailed it with regards to the ethics of these regarding gambling, psychological tricks and the nefarious effects on game design. I don't really agree that it's fine if they're cosmetics only, but that argument has been lost already. I

 

I also think even if they were free they would be a problem, it totally breaks the fiction and takes you out of the game when they show up in single player games. 

 

 

[Nate Dogg III]

2 hours ago, Stanley said:

The latter. 

 

CDPR proved without doubt that you can make the biggest, most expansive, technically demanding games and make a profit without resorting to pre order bonuses, loot boxes and any other bollocks these companies use. It's all about  shareholder value.

 

CDPR have a ton of money thanks to GOG and their distribution stuff in Poland, they could afford to shoulder the risk. Also, obviously, Witcher III predates the current loot-box vogue so it wasn't an issue then. It did have retailer-specific pre-order bonuses, though, and an expansion pass. 

 

The current trend is purely a matter of it being something publishers feel they can get away with, like XP boosters and all the rest of it all the way back to horse armour. The only way it stops is when the money dries up or the PR fallout is so bad it no longer justifies the money it makes. 

 

I don't think Overwatch has been a big factor in it to be honest. It's cosmetic and optional and I don't expect the takeup rate is that high. The real culprit is FIFA Ultimate Team, a mode built entirely on RNG pack opening that you pretty much have to spend money on if you want to get anywhere with it. Weirdly I think EA deserve a bit of credit for hiving it off into its own mode, rather than building the whole game around it. 

 

Like everything else, this is a phase and it'll pass, but only when publishers find something else to replace it. 

[Oz]

2 hours ago, Nate Dogg III said:

 

CDPR have a ton of money thanks to GOG and their distribution stuff in Poland, they could afford to shoulder the risk. Also, obviously, Witcher III predates the current loot-box vogue so it wasn't an issue then. It did have retailer-specific pre-order bonuses, though, and an expansion pass. 

 

The current trend is purely a matter of it being something publishers feel they can get away with, like XP boosters and all the rest of it all the way back to horse armour. The only way it stops is when the money dries up or the PR fallout is so bad it no longer justifies the money it makes. 

 

I don't think Overwatch has been a big factor in it to be honest. It's cosmetic and optional and I don't expect the takeup rate is that high. The real culprit is FIFA Ultimate Team, a mode built entirely on RNG pack opening that you pretty much have to spend money on if you want to get anywhere with it. Weirdly I think EA deserve a bit of credit for hiving it off into its own mode, rather than building the whole game around it. 

 

Like everything else, this is a phase and it'll pass, but only when publishers find something else to replace it. 

I think the real culprit is the iPhone and mobile game pricing. Which led to this being a thing in mobile phones. Hope it will indeed pass. 

[Stanley]

2 hours ago, Nate Dogg III said:

 

CDPR have a ton of money thanks to GOG and their distribution stuff in Poland, they could afford to shoulder the risk. Also, obviously, Witcher III predates the current loot-box vogue so it wasn't an issue then. It did have retailer-specific pre-order bonuses, though, and an expansion pass. 

 

The current trend is purely a matter of it being something publishers feel they can get away with, like XP boosters and all the rest of it all the way back to horse armour. The only way it stops is when the money dries up or the PR fallout is so bad it no longer justifies the money it makes. 

 

I don't think Overwatch has been a big factor in it to be honest. It's cosmetic and optional and I don't expect the takeup rate is that high. The real culprit is FIFA Ultimate Team, a mode built entirely on RNG pack opening that you pretty much have to spend money on if you want to get anywhere with it. Weirdly I think EA deserve a bit of credit for hiving it off into its own mode, rather than building the whole game around it. 

 

Like everything else, this is a phase and it'll pass, but only when publishers find something else to replace it. 

Not sure what you're saying. It either is profitable to make a AAA without this extra monetisation, or it isn't. If it isn't then it won't pass. 

 

Regardless of CDPR's extra revenue streams, Witcher III still turned a profit. So I believe it's not necessary. It's just greed and big publishers playing it safe.

[Nate Dogg III]

Ah, seems I misread you. Yes, it's certainly possible to do that, though far more games will fail than succeed at it. 

[Stanley]

Well yeah, but the point is that if Witcher can do it, funded by GOG without resorting to shady practices, then I'm sure Warner Bros can too. That's Warner Bros, owned by Time Warner, who're currently negotiating a buy out/merger with AT&T for $85 billion. 

[mr_woo]

3 hours ago, Nate Dogg III said:

 

CDPR have a ton of money thanks to GOG and their distribution stuff in Poland, they could afford to shoulder the risk. Also, obviously, Witcher III predates the current loot-box vogue so it wasn't an issue then. It did have retailer-specific pre-order bonuses, though, and an expansion pass. 

 

The current trend is purely a matter of it being something publishers feel they can get away with, like XP boosters and all the rest of it all the way back to horse armour. The only way it stops is when the money dries up or the PR fallout is so bad it no longer justifies the money it makes. 

 

I don't think Overwatch has been a big factor in it to be honest. It's cosmetic and optional and I don't expect the takeup rate is that high. The real culprit is FIFA Ultimate Team, a mode built entirely on RNG pack opening that you pretty much have to spend money on if you want to get anywhere with it. Weirdly I think EA deserve a bit of credit for hiving it off into its own mode, rather than building the whole game around it. 

 

Like everything else, this is a phase and it'll pass, but only when publishers find something else to replace it. 

 

https://charlieintel.com/2017/02/09/activision-blizzard-made-3-6-billion-game-content-sales-2016/

 

https://www.vg247.com/2017/06/01/we-can-do-more-microtransactions-says-publisher-of-gta-and-red-dead-redemption/

 

 

Unfortunately they aren't going anywhere anytime soon.  Apparently one of the worst games this year for it is NBA 2K18 which has microtransactions for practically everything.

[TehStu]

We shouldn't shut up about it. Turn 10 did an about face.

[Mortis]

yeah on the perks for the VIP tier - the loot boxes are still there and will have a real money cost patched in soon 

[Strafe]

The animation and extra effort of button presses are extremely irritating.

 

Take battlefront 2, you press a button, the box shakes, then opens, then you see you have 3 pieces of loot (it is always 3 pieces), and then you press a button to see the first one or a different one to see all of them.

 

Why can’t I see all of them from the off? That’s why I’m opening it. Fuck of, EA.

[Majora]

I wouldn't be surprised if psychology is involved. When people develop gambling addictions I believe the sense of anticipation is more important than the actual end result, so you want to enhance and drag on that feeling of anticipation for as long as possible. 

[Harsin]

That’s exactly it. When you eventually get a rare item it's usually accompanied by a special animation and an audio fanfare, like a winning spin on a slot machine, for the maximum dopamine rush.

[Talk Show Host]

The point is that the only way to deal with this is to stop buying the games that abuse the system like this and, at the same time, have an active, responsible press. None of these are happening any time soon.

 

In the same way that addiction plays a part into the lootbox phenomenon, gamers are also addicted to brand loyalty, despite quality, and their buying mentality is mostly based on precedents when it comes to the multi million big hitters. 

 

This is, maybe, first and foremost, more a discussion about general videogame addiction and how serious it has become, rather than how corporations are abusing a market which, let's be honest, it's just a staple of the world we live in and it can never change.

[ScouserInExile]

I've only encountered proper loot crates in Injustice 2. Yes, there are wheelspins in Forza games, but nothing of any real importance is locked behind them - there are special editions of some cars, but they don't make a lot of difference to the game. I have a good few and pretty much never use them. I actually quite like the wheelspins. This seems to be the way to do it.

 

In Injustice, it's a bit more rpg-like. Effectively armour, weapons and buffs are only available through crates. But, again, it doesn't really interfere with the game much. You can complete the main game without them and the weekly / daily / hourly challenges can be done without them as well. All good so far. Then I ventured online and encountered a whole load of relatively low level players using characters maxed out with epic gear, giving them a massive advantage, which really soured the experience for me, to the point where I rapidly gave up playing online. 

 

From what people are saying about Forza 7, I may well be giving it a miss.

 

 

[Darwock]

The game I am currently most looking forward to (Ace Combat 7)  is one that I am also expecting to be riddled with this kind of shit, precluding me from ever buying it. It's a horrible feeling.

 

Namco's entire approach for the past five years seems to be fleecing the fans. I'm just holding a slim hope that the fact they are still running the pay-to-play version means this will be more traditional.

 

[Strafe]

4 hours ago, Majora said:

I wouldn't be surprised if psychology is involved. When people develop gambling addictions I believe the sense of anticipation is more important than the actual end result, so you want to enhance and drag on that feeling of anticipation for as long as possible. 

 

Yeah, I thought that. There is definitely an air of FOBT's about them.

[Benny]

I'm only signing it if a get a little firework display and fanfare after I click submit.

[Strangelite]

My 2p:

 

It's not going away any time soon...

 

Basically, console game developers are about 2 years behind Mobile game developers for "unethical / questionable moral practises" - whereas console game platforms have rules and regulations, mobile is basically the wild west. - Most mobile games now are actually just gambling games dressed to appeal to gamers, they offer very little in what we'd call "fun game play" - and are usually just wrappers for a monetisation model. Retention is the key word in the world of mobile, "what is your retention rate" = what percentage of users come back to your game.

 

Be under no illusion, these developer teams aren't some dudes in a garage, there are hundreds and hundreds of psychologists working on a project, to psychologically exploit the maximum amount of revenue and addiction from a person playing the game. There's also the [very interesting] world of A/B testing, where they literally split audiences and test which system gets the best (most profitable) response, and then they roll that out to everyone. It's a scientific and systematic method of development, nothing is done by a hunch or gut instincts. And very little is ever done for the benefit of the end user.

 

Console game makers are looking over the fence with enviable eyes. The pressures on their bigger budget games to 'break even' mean that any method to increase the monetisation revenue of the game will be considered. They normally come up against some sort of platform holder "policy" which they have to design around, (e.g. kompu gacha is outlawed in Japan, but basically it's exactly what Fifa does, although there's subtle differences to dodge this law) - every time the platform holder says "hey! no gambling!" - the developer / publisher will find a new method to dodge that ruling. In this case, loot boxes.

 

Thankfully, most platform holders have a strict "no real money transaction" policy, (i.e. you can't have a gambling game for real money on any console platform) - if they ever dropped this, it opens an entirely new world of hurt to the end user. Pray that never happens, but as the revenues of console games AAA and below narrow, they'll definitely consider it. I see "paid mods" as the avenue this is very likely going to go down. The end users will be paid to create the game content for the developer in some fashion.

 

 

Anyway: Sorry, tldr; Loot boxes are here to stay as long as their is a proven revenue stream. Fifa is the tentpole example of "Games as a service - or GaaS", it's popularity means it will be examined and aped/copied on other projects until better comes along. 

 

 

[Harsin]

[Varsity]

Didn't mind em at first, mainly OW cosmetics but it's getting to a sickening level now. BF2 is a prime example, it's blatantly Pay to win. Shadow of War's are also shaping up to be utterly disgusting. For the first time, I'm voting with my wallet and refusing to support any products that force loot boxes into single player experiences or pay to win. 

 

As numerous articles online have said, it's predatory and exploitative behaviour. Disgusting. 

[sprite]

On 07/10/2017 at 14:29, ronin said:

 

https://amiibo.life/games/switch/super-mario-odyssey

 

 

 

Ive preordered the wedding set together with an Odyssey Switch, but cant help thinking this is just as 'bad' as loot boxes in terms of providing gameplay advantages. At least they look nice on the shelf, and there is no gambling with the actual purchase of what you get although you could probably buy a lot of 'loot box' items for the price they demand in the market. (I got the odyssey amiibos @14 or so from amazon)

 

Pants.

 

I have got the three wedding amiibo pre-ordered individually (I just missed the set on Nintendo, but individuals worked out to the same price).  I was going to cancel as it feels a bit OTT but knowing they actually do stuff in the game now makes me want to keep them.

 

And my koopa troopa arrived today 

[robdood]

On 07/10/2017 at 14:29, ronin said:

 

https://amiibo.life/games/switch/super-mario-odyssey

 

 

 

Ive preordered the wedding set together with an Odyssey Switch, but cant help thinking this is just as 'bad' as loot boxes in terms of providing gameplay advantages. At least they look nice on the shelf, and there is no gambling with the actual purchase of what you get although you could probably buy a lot of 'loot box' items for the price they demand in the market. (I got the odyssey amiibos @14 or so from amazon)

Its not just as bad as loot boxes because buying amiibos isn't dressed up gambling. 

[Stanley]

Amiibos just seem like a very clever way of family friendly Nintendo sidestepping the whole issue, yet in effect Amiibos do what lootboxes do, in that they give you random loot or bonuses for using them in game. I mean they're nowhere near as intrusive as what EA and Warners are doing, but it's a similar principle. It's just that you get a nice collectible figurine too, so they kind of get away with it. 

[Harsin]

It’s not random though is it? They do set things in set games?

 

i really don’t like gating off parts of games behind some plastic tat, but it’s nowhere near as pernicious as the loot boxes being discussed in this thread.

[Orbital2060]

2 hours ago, sprite said:

 

Pants.

 

I have got the three wedding amiibo pre-ordered individually (I just missed the set on Nintendo, but individuals worked out to the same price).  I was going to cancel as it feels a bit OTT but knowing they actually do stuff in the game now makes me want to keep them.

 

And my koopa troopa arrived today 

 

14 euro each, sorry. the 3-pack was gone by the time I had managed to put the preorder for the switch in..