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The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power

JohnC

By JohnC
in Film, TV & Radio

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kensei

kensei

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, scottcr said:


Orcs are bad because they are bad? They were created by torturing elves under ground. 
 

Read Smith of Wooton Major and Tolkein’s essay to go with it. He wasn’t precious about his lore… 

 

That's cool I didn't know how they were created.

 

Tolkien never solved the problem of orcs being effectively irredeemable. I am not sure these writers are going to.

 

They are bad for the same reason the Nazgul are: they effectively don't have free will and are an extension of the Dark Lord's power.

 

It's not that in other places the idea hasn't been explored or could work. Just here I think the nature of it means you'll undercut the heroic characters.

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Benny

Benny

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Seems a bit weird to be so sniffy about the lore of this but not know that about Orcs. The show plays right into that aspect with them specifically.

 

And I think suggesting that it could undercut the heroism of the characters seems like a bit of a misunderstanding of heroism. A hero isn't necessarily just made from fighting evil. It could be how that person chooses to act in situations where they can help others or a whole host of different things.

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scottcr

scottcr

Posted
Posted
13 minutes ago, kensei said:

 

That's cool I didn't know how they were created.

 

Tolkien never solved the problem of orcs being effectively irredeemable. I am not sure these writers are going to.

 

They are bad for the same reason the Nazgul are: they effectively don't have free will and are an extension of the Dark Lord's power.

 

It's not that in other places the idea hasn't been explored or could work. Just here I think the nature of it means you'll undercut the heroic characters.


RoP was absolutely spot on with the creation of the Orcs and why Adar did what he did.

 

it’s almost as if folks don’t realise that this programme has Tolkein estate members on the production team and the writers can speak elvish  

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choddo

choddo

Posted
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9 hours ago, Sidewaysbob said:

 

If your an incel who can't deal with a strong female character being a bit grumpy, its really terrrible

Lol what? I loved Nisa for example so I have no issue with strong female characters. Galadriel is just a missed opportunity in this, waste of an amazing, deep character, swapped for pretty much an identikit female sword ninja whose most complex relationship is with a dagger. Does anyone care if she shows up in S2E1? Would it make any difference?

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Sarlaccfood

Sarlaccfood

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, choddo said:

Lol what? I loved Nisa for example so I have no issue with strong female characters. Galadriel is just a missed opportunity in this, waste of an amazing, deep character, swapped for pretty much an identikit female sword ninja whose most complex relationship is with a dagger. Does anyone care if she shows up in S2E1? Would it make any difference?

 

Counterpoint: she was my favourite character.

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Wiper

Wiper

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, PK said:

If this isn't grabbing me after the first two episodes, is it probably not worth continuing with? Or does it shift gear?

 

We stuck with it and regretted it. If you're not enjoying it two episodes in and are hoping it will build to something different, you're probably best off spending the remaining hours on something else!

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Chindie

Chindie

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, PK said:

If this isn't grabbing me after the first two episodes, is it probably not worth continuing with? Or does it shift gear?

 

It gets better but if you expect it to significantly change as a show, it doesn't. You get a few action scenes, an 'event' or 2, but fundamentally it retains its tone etc.

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Chindie

Chindie

Posted
Posted

Re. Orc origins.

 

There's not an established canon origin. Depending on the time and the work, Tolkein changes where they came from. The most common interpretation is that they are corrupted elves, taken by Morgoth and broken across generations into the fallen creatures they are. But there's also versions where they are literally created by Morgoth from the base elements of evil of the world into a mirrored mockery of the elves, and versions where they're basically evil creatures that have been bred with the 'fair' beings of the world creating a hybrid race that is inherently evil and beast-like (which is the interpretation you don't want to touch with a barge pole from a IRL race perspective). Most people go with the corrupted elves take because it's the most thematically and narratively pleasing, but it also makes critical analysis of the story dodgy from a moral point of view, which it appears Tolkein didn't want - the orcs are just a faceless horde of evil in essence, and are there to antagonise the heroic good guys, and fulfil the origin of this world having an unintended evil in it l.

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dug

dug

Posted
Posted

I did watch episode one tonight. I liked it. 

 

The visuals were fantastic, 10/10. Made me wish I have a bigger TV. And it set up the plotlines decently enough. Of course, whether or not those plotlines end up being interesting and satisfying remains to be seen.

 

My biggest gripe is the godawful cod-oirish/mummerset accents of the hobbits. But i suppose I'll get over that.

 

One thing that stuck out: in the scene where Galadriel was being given the laurel crown by King Elf, there was a close up shot of Galadriel's eyes, and I could swear it was Cate Blanchett's eyes, not Morfydd Clark's. Am I going nuts or did anyone else think this?

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Festoon

Festoon

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, choddo said:

Lol what? I loved Nisa for example so I have no issue with strong female characters. Galadriel is just a missed opportunity in this, waste of an amazing, deep character, swapped for pretty much an identikit female sword ninja whose most complex relationship is with a dagger. Does anyone care if she shows up in S2E1? Would it make any difference?

 

Yeah, she's like, really hot.

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Festoon

Festoon

Posted
Posted
25 minutes ago, dug said:

One thing that stuck out: in the scene where Galadriel was being given the laurel crown by King Elf, there was a close up shot of Galadriel's eyes, and I could swear it was Cate Blanchett's eyes, not Morfydd Clark's. Am I going nuts or did anyone else think this?

 

They were doing the "lights of Valinor" trick with reflected light.

 

They did it when Halbrand was talking to her on the raft too. She looked astounding there.

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Wiper

Wiper

Posted
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I will admit that a degree of my enjoyment of the Elrond/Dwarves scenes was that Elrond would absolutely get it.

 

But then, the same goes for Elendil, and even he couldn't make the Numenorian scenes bearable (see also: Monarch of the Glen, though he was considerably less attractive back then), so that definitely isn't all there was to it!

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Bucky

Bucky

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Festoon said:

 

They were doing the "lights of Valinor" trick with reflected light.

 

They did it when Halbrand was talking to her on the raft too. She looked astounding there.

Morfydd Clark is outstandingly pretty.  And whether by CGI, makeup, acting or her otherworldly photogenic nature, as an actress she absolutely captures the transcendental nature of the elves.  The only similar physical performance I can think of is Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman.  Performance aside, there were moments, stills, slow motions where both actresses look otherworldly.

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choddo

choddo

Posted
Posted

I almost drew a comparison to Wonder Woman earlier when I was pointing out how she doesn’t have that ethereal elven thing going on in this because it’s been subsumed into warriorness.

 

But Gal Gadot must stand alone in the pantheon of genuinely mind-bendingly beautiful women who also come across as charming and incredibly smart. She has no equal in this mortal realm.

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Sidewaysbob

Sidewaysbob

Posted
Posted
Spoiler
Spoiler

 

 

3 hours ago, choddo said:

Lol what? I loved Nisa for example so I have no issue with strong female characters. Galadriel is just a missed opportunity in this, waste of an amazing, deep character, swapped for pretty much an identikit female sword ninja whose most complex relationship is with a dagger. Does anyone care if she shows up in S2E1? Would it make any difference?

 

Sorry, I wasn't referring to you at all. More the frothing end of the Internet who think all females are bad things in TV. You're far too nice for that sort of thing 

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kensei

kensei

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, scottcr said:

 I think you’ll find that the humans that become the Nazgûl do it entirely out of their own free will

 

They accept the rings of their own free will but one of the few powers of the One Ring we actually get is that it allows the welder to dominate and control the users of the other rings. 

 

Quote

Nine he gave to Mortal Men, proud and great, and so ensnared them. Long ago they fell under the dominion of the One, and they became Ringwraiths

 

They are under the dominion of the One. They don't have free will.

 

I think it's better to think of the orcs like that because the moral implications of not doing that are fairly horrifying, particularly in a world that tends to be reasonably black and white.

 

3 hours ago, Benny said:

Seems a bit weird to be so sniffy about the lore of this but not know that about Orcs. The show plays right into that aspect with them specifically.

 

And I think suggesting that it could undercut the heroism of the characters seems like a bit of a misunderstanding of heroism. A hero isn't necessarily just made from fighting evil. It could be how that person chooses to act in situations where they can help others or a whole host of different things.

 

Yeah I don't know how I missed the orcs were corrupted elves, my copy of the Silmarillion must have had those pages ripped out!!!! Weird as lollol!!

 

How many genocides can you claim to want and how many sympathetic creatures can you murder and still be cool? 

 

I understand what they are going for and how they are also trying to build up the things that happen in the finale. It makes sense in those terms. I just don't think it's a good fit for this story and world. I felt in the scene with Adar and Galadriel, she came across as particularly nasty and I don't think it did her character any favours.

 

Not claiming this is anything other than just my opinion. 

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neoELITE

neoELITE

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, PK said:

If this isn't grabbing me after the first two episodes, is it probably not worth continuing with? Or does it shift gear?

 

6 hours ago, Alan Stock said:

 

I wouldn't bother. It does pick up but it doesn't dramatically change its pacing or style.

 

Episodes 7 and 8 move the plot on quite quickly compared to the first 3. Episodes 1 and 2 introduce lots of characters with strange names so I felt a bit confused but once the main characters start their stories it becomes more of a story. Episode 1 was quite disjointed. Thinking back to other long TV series I've watched, they all mostly do this though. 

 

I watched 7 and 8 together and it didn't feel like 2 hours. 

 

It's going to be 5 seasons (at least). That's a lot of episodes so the pacing is inevitably going to be slow compared to even The Hobbit trilogy. 

 

I read LoTR when I was child so can only really remember fleeting elements of that and I enjoyed season 1 of this. It's spectacular in places and it's obvious just how much it cost. The costumes, sets, CGI are on a par with anything in cinema and it's a TV show. All of the cast are accomplished and believable and season 1 has really done an amazing job of building a World. 

 

There's a lot of story arcs now set up and probably new big characters to arrive.  I'll stick with this. 

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Benny

Benny

Posted
Posted

If I could pick one thing I really didn't like about the series, I think it was in episode 6:

 

Spoiler

The scene where the villagers are being held by the Orcs, and an older man and woman are shown in extreme distress and terror as they watch an Orc slowly pushing a sword into them both, without any cuts away from it. I found it really nasty and exploitative, and it felt like it was trying to be Game of Thrones in tone for a bit, which for me does not fit the source material at all. There is always darkness and terror and horror in The Lord of the Rings, but I don't think it needs gratuitous torture.

 

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Benny

Benny

Posted
Posted

I mean it's pretty easy to show evil characters without dwelling the camera on their actions. The only reason to shoot it that way is to set a very oppressive and unsettling atmosphere, that has much more in common with the Horror genre.

 

I don't think it was necessary in this show considering the tone of most of it. At a basic level it makes the series less watchable by a wider audience, and I think, given that, it would have benefited from being toned down a bit. The scene was already very effective without it.

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