The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power

[Wiper]

Every time I see some moron on social media/youtube whinging about how the presence of black characters who aren't bad'uns is some sort of woke betrayal of everything Lord of the Rings stands for it makes me want to like the series more. Alas, things don't work that way, and it remains very much a disappointment for me, but none of its flaws are related to the skin tone or gender of its actors (or any other "woke" attributes one might like to claim it has).

[cavalcade]

12 hours ago, KriessG said:

I heard this was pandering to the woke crowd and completely disrespectful to the source material. True?

 

 

 

It's political correctness gone mad is what it is. What's next? Elves marrying dogs? Hobbits coming over here with their pipes and hairy feet trying to fix my boiler? Not on my watch. 

[Hanzo the Razor]

14 hours ago, choddo said:

It was not that great. 6/10. That is my final offer. 

 

That's generous. I can't actually bring myself to watch the last episode. The previous one was so dull that it nearly did me in.

[IcEBuRN]

Average

Story 5/10

looks 10/10

6/10

 

And boy oh boy, they like telling a lot of story, that really didn't tell us much story.

[Chindie]

15 hours ago, KriessG said:

I heard this was pandering to the woke crowd and completely disrespectful to the source material. True?

 

 

 

It's not 'woke'. It casts some none pasty white people in roles Tolkein would have had whiter than the winter snow, but this has absolutely no bearing on anything.

 

Disrespectful to the source... Questionable. It basically has to plough it's own furrow to an extent as the source they can use is so limited. They're trying to make a 5 series long show out of the notes and references at the end of the Lord of the Rings, which is stupid, but here we are. As a result it changes a bit, makes up completely new stuff, etc. It's not clear that they've done this out of disdain for the source, so it doesn't seem they have disrespect for it, they've just made changes fans wouldn't have, to varying success. Some of it is absurd, some of it is rubbish, some of it is pretty decent. Some changes are practical in nature - it's telling a story Tolkein says takes place over thousands of years in a single human generation, to help with casting and character development, they've mixed up some character stuff because they wanted to make an eye catching mystery which they couldn't do if every book reader knew the answer, and they've chucked in stuff that shouldn't be there to make it more LotR-y.

 

I'm not sure all that's disrespectful, it's more a slightly hamfisted attempt at making something good from very limited scraps.

[kensei]

16 hours ago, Wiper said:

Every time I see some moron on social media/youtube whinging about how the presence of black characters who aren't bad'uns is some sort of woke betrayal of everything Lord of the Rings stands for it makes me want to like the series more. Alas, things don't work that way, and it remains very much a disappointment for me, but none of its flaws are related to the skin tone or gender of its actors (or any other "woke" attributes one might like to claim it has).

 

This.

 

@Chindie trying to force an eye catching mystery where Tolkien really had no interest in eye catching mysteries and chopping and changing a lot of things to try and get there is in itself unfaithful to Tolkien.

 

Its just not very faithful beyond a superficial level. Even what they did with mithril - it just feels like they didn't get the themes at all.

 

[Festoon]

Tolkien says Sauron tries to gather as much mithril to himself as he can.

[Festoon]

The show is also pretty good, despite the 'meh-athon' here.

[kensei]

6 minutes ago, Festoon said:

Tolkien says Sauron tries to gather as much mithril to himself as he can.

 

He said

 

Spoiler

Mithril was magic metal because it had the light of Simarils and some form of Balrog power in it, aye?

 

It takes something that was about the craft of the people involved and their own inherent power and externalises it to a magic property of the material.

 

[Festoon]

50 minutes ago, kensei said:

 

He said

 

  Hide contents

Mithril was magic metal because it had the light of Simarils and some form of Balrog power in it, aye?

 

It takes something that was about the craft of the people involved and their own inherent power and externalises it to a magic property of the material.

 

 

Ah, who cares. It was a good show.

[Mikes]

3 hours ago, kensei said:

 

He said

 

  Hide contents

Mithril was magic metal because it had the light of Simarils and some form of Balrog power in it, aye?

 

 

No, he just said it had special properties, and made a point that because of those properties Sauron went out fo his way to gather it all for himself.

 

Like much of Tolkien's writings outside of what he published he left a to more unsaid than said, and honestly a myth built around a bolrog and elf fighting over an ore vein giving it magical powers wouldn't even crack the top ten weirdest things he actually was explicit about.

 

The imbuement of mithril with the ability to prolong the existence of elves in ME was a decent plot device to get the ball rolling on that storyline. LIke much in the show it could have been delivered better, but it fits in with the whole.

 

I'm looking forward to see where the storylines go in S2. Obviously meteorman is

 

Spoiler

One of the blue wizards. This will be interesting as Tolkiden wrote nothing about them. So far the show has shined where they haven't tried to recreat Tolkien's storyliens have taken the freedom to branch out - thinking Arondir and the Southlands and the Harfoots here. SO I have high hopes for Nori and .... Blue.

 

[Mikes]

Also, one of the things I'm sad about is Games Workshop aren't working with Amazon to create a new line of minis for the tabletop games base dont he show.  However, 3d printing is a thing and there are creators out there already filling the gap:

 

 

[Stig]

Our podcast did a spoiler special on season 1 if anyone fancies one to listen to. It's on YT, Spotify and all podcast providers. Please enjoy.

 

 

 

https://audioboom.com/posts/8177962-the-lord-of-the-rings-the-rings-of-power-season-1-spoiler-cast

 

[scottcr]

9 hours ago, Mikes said:

 

No, he just said it had special properties, and made a point that because of those properties Sauron went out fo his way to gather it all for himself.

 

Like much of Tolkien's writings outside of what he published he left a to more unsaid than said, and honestly a myth built around a bolrog and elf fighting over an ore vein giving it magical powers wouldn't even crack the top ten weirdest things he actually was explicit about.

 

The imbuement of mithril with the ability to prolong the existence of elves in ME was a decent plot device to get the ball rolling on that storyline. LIke much in the show it could have been delivered better, but it fits in with the whole.

 

I'm looking forward to see where the storylines go in S2. Obviously meteorman is

 

  Hide contents

One of the blue wizards. This will be interesting as Tolkiden wrote nothing about them. So far the show has shined where they haven't tried to recreat Tolkien's storyliens have taken the freedom to branch out - thinking Arondir and the Southlands and the Harfoots here. SO I have high hopes for Nori and .... Blue.

 

 

nah - on 'the stranger'

 

Spoiler

If he's anyone other than Gandalf, then that feels like a 'cheat' to the audience who have all come to that conclusion due to him using a quote from the films.  Blue wizards mean absolutely nothing to anyone.  The show is trying to condense about 5000 years into two family generations... 

 

and on lore in general - I massive recommend folks reading Smith on Wooton Major and Tolkein's essay on faery or 'imagination'.  The whole tale is about passing the story onto other generations, and not just father/mother to son/daughter but to the very young, where they still have the connection with faery that the son or daughter doesn't have.  Tolkein wrote loads, re-wrote it, changed all sorts and barely finsihed all of it.  He fully intended people much younger than him or not even born, to take those notes and run with them, make them their own and change them if it makes sense.  While we've got to admire Christopher Tolkein's work in brinigng all his dad's stuff to the public - it seems as though he completely missed this point.

[kensei]

11 hours ago, Mikes said:

 

No, he just said it had special properties, and made a point that because of those properties Sauron went out fo his way to gather it all for himself.

 

Like much of Tolkien's writings outside of what he published he left a to more unsaid than said, and honestly a myth built around a bolrog and elf fighting over an ore vein giving it magical powers wouldn't even crack the top ten weirdest things he actually was explicit about.

 

The imbuement of mithril with the ability to prolong the existence of elves in ME was a decent plot device to get the ball rolling on that storyline. LIke much in the show it could have been delivered better, but it fits in with the whole.

 

I'm looking forward to see where the storylines go in S2. Obviously meteorman is

 

  Reveal hidden contents

One of the blue wizards. This will be interesting as Tolkiden wrote nothing about them. So far the show has shined where they haven't tried to recreat Tolkien's storyliens have taken the freedom to branch out - thinking Arondir and the Southlands and the Harfoots here. SO I have high hopes for Nori and .... Blue.

 

 

What where those properties?

 

Spoiler

Mithril! All folk desired it. It could be beaten like copper, and polished like glass; and the Dwarves could make of it a metal, light and yet harder than tempered steel. Its beauty was like to that of common silver, but the beauty of mithril did not tarnish or grow dim.

 

It's just, like, a metal. A really good metal. If he has lots more mad stuff, I dunno, why not go with those.

 

The story as written is Sauron turns up, disguised as "Annatar" and tries to convince the Elves that they can make Middle Earth as beautiful as Valinor. Some don't take the bait, but some do. There's no great mystery for the reader who he is. The Rings are forged under his direction and knowledge. 

 

You could expand that into an interesting story. Or you can change a load of things around to get a "Who is Sauron?" mystery box. 

 

You might like it. Lots of people here seem to. Grand, it's not for me to police your joy. But the original question was around whether this is faithful and I just do not see that at all.

[Chindie]

It's not faithful at all, bar on the biggest and most vague levels. My comments before were more focused on whether it's disrespectful and why it's not faithful. Whether the 'why' is justified is subjective. I don't personally like it much, but I get it from the perspective of what they had and what they wanted to do with it.

[Thor]

But what are we talking about when we mention faithful? Faithful to what, exactly? Because The Silmarillion is not being adapted here, the show producers don't have the rights to that. So anything in The Silmarillion should just be thrown out and ignored. But a bunch of uber lore nerds are proper losing their shit because this show is not The Silmarillion. It was never ever going to be, and never will be.

[kensei]

As the main descriptions of the Second Age appear in "Akallabeth" and "Of the Rings of Power" in the Silmarillion, it would be glorious insanity if they aren't allowed to use any of it. As I understood they licensed the Appendices and sole bits of the Silmarillion. There seems to be a lot of confusion about it. I read it said they couldn't even name Galadriel's brother because of rights issues, but Finrod's name is right there in the Appendices.

 

Regardless they have changed stuff even within the bounds of LoTR.

 

Spoiler

They've messed the order of the rings being forged, which seems trivial but sort of makes it hard for Sauron to be involved in the others

 

Also if you wanted the definition of crap fan fiction

 

Spoiler

What is mithril really had the power of the Silmarils and a Balrog mashed together?

 

What if Galadriel commanded armies and was responsible for Sauron coming back?

 

What if Gandalf came in the Second Age and meant some Hobbits and flight some proto Nazghul

 

Would be right up there.

[Thor]

12 minutes ago, kensei said:

As the main descriptions of the Second Age appear in "Akallabeth" and "Of the Rings of Power" in the Silmarillion, it would be glorious insanity if they aren't allowed to use any of it.

From an interview with the showrunners in Vanity Fair:

Quote

What, Exactly, Is the Source Material Here?

 

So what did Amazon buy? “We have the rights solely to The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King, the appendices, and The Hobbit,” Payne says. “And that is it. We do not have the rights to The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, The History of Middle-earth, or any of those other books.” That takes a huge chunk of lore off the table and has left Tolkien fans wondering how this duo plans to tell a Second Age story without access to those materials. “There’s a version of everything we need for the Second Age in the books we have the rights to,” McKay says. “As long as we’re painting within those lines and not egregiously contradicting something we don’t have the rights to, there’s a lot of leeway and room to dramatize and tell some of the best stories that [Tolkien] ever came up with.”

I suggest you go and throw The Silmarillion in the fucking bin! It's fucking crap anyway. #ohnohedidnt 

[Stig]

Who are people trying to convince here? If you don't like it and find it bad fan fiction, that's fine, chalk it off as something you don't like and move on. But telling us that over and over wont change ours minds.

 

For me, the time compressions and overall show was approved by the JRRT estate which have been ultra critical of stuff before, Christopher hates the films for example, so for him to sign off on this he must have been happy enough.

[Thor]

6 minutes ago, Stigweard said:

Who are people trying to convince here? If you don't like it and find it bad fan fiction, that's fine, chalk it off as something you don't like and move on. But telling us that do like it the same stuff over and over wont change ours minds.

 

For me, the time compressions and overall show was approved by the JRRT estate which have been ultra critical of stuff before, Christopher hates the films for example, so for him to sign off on this he must have been happy enough.

Looking at the Wiki, it would appear it's the grandson, Simon, who has the pull.

 

edit: Christopher Tolkien died two years ago - I didn't know!

[makkuwata]

If he’s rolling in his grave alongside Shakespeare at the nerve of new generations reimagining his writings then boo-hoo.

[Stig]

1 hour ago, Thor said:

Looking at the Wiki, it would appear it's the grandson, Simon, who has the pull.

 

edit: Christopher Tolkien died two years ago - I didn't know!

 

Ah sorry, I just see him brought up all the time re the estate. Although I'm sure if he died 2 years ago the deal with Amazon was already in place.

[Mikes]

7 hours ago, kensei said:

What where those properties?

 

From History of Middle Earth:

 

"They (orcs) give it (mithril) in tribute to Sauron, who has long been gathering and hoarding all that he can find. It is not known why: not for beauty, but for some secret purpose in the making of weapons of war."

 

Like I said, vague as fuck. He leaves more out of his writing than he puts in. Any adaptation to screen will need to get creative to fill the gaps.

[Mikes]

6 hours ago, Stigweard said:

Who are people trying to convince here? If you don't like it and find it bad fan fiction, that's fine, chalk it off as something you don't like and move on. But telling us that do like it the same stuff over and over wont change ours minds.

 

Shades of:

 

 

[kensei]

So once again, not trying to police anyone's joy. Happy people like it. But the actual question was whether it was a faithful adaptation and, no, it just isn't.

 

4 minutes ago, Mikes said:

 

From History of Middle Earth:

 

"They (orcs) give it (mithril) in tribute to Sauron, who has long been gathering and hoarding all that he can find. It is not known why: not for beauty, but for some secret purpose in the making of weapons of war."

 

Like I said, vague as fuck. He leaves more out of his writing than he puts in. Any adaptation to screen will need to get creative to fill the gaps.

 

Or you could read the Lord of The Rings above, which gives its properties. The above also fails to mention that mithril has the magic light of the Silmarils in it. Odd he didn't mention it, given the fact they are really, really important to his lore. It's not that vague.

 

@Thor I stand corrected. Is the Tolkien estate holding back for a bigger budget go around with the Silmarillion material? Utterly crazy. 

 

[Thor]

2 minutes ago, kensei said:

But the actual question was whether it was a faithful adaptation and, no, it just isn't.

But Kensei, adaptation of what?  

[Festoon]

10 hours ago, scottcr said:

 

nah - on 'the stranger'

 

  Hide contents

If he's anyone other than Gandalf, then that feels like a 'cheat' to the audience who have all come to that conclusion due to him using a quote from the films.  Blue wizards mean absolutely nothing to anyone.  The show is trying to condense about 5000 years into two family generations... 

 

and on lore in general - I massive recommend folks reading Smith on Wooton Major and Tolkein's essay on faery or 'imagination'.  The whole tale is about passing the story onto other generations, and not just father/mother to son/daughter but to the very young, where they still have the connection with faery that the son or daughter doesn't have.  Tolkein wrote loads, re-wrote it, changed all sorts and barely finsihed all of it.  He fully intended people much younger than him or not even born, to take those notes and run with them, make them their own and change them if it makes sense.  While we've got to admire Christopher Tolkein's work in brinigng all his dad's stuff to the public - it seems as though he completely missed this point.

 

And Christopher Tolkein hated the Jackson films too.

[Festoon]

49 minutes ago, kensei said:

So once again, not trying to police anyone's joy. Happy people like it. But the actual question was whether it was a faithful adaptation and, no, it just isn't.

 

 

Or you could read the Lord of The Rings above, which gives its properties. The above also fails to mention that mithril has the magic light of the Silmarils in it. Odd he didn't mention it, given the fact they are really, really important to his lore. It's not that vague.

 

@Thor I stand corrected. Is the Tolkien estate holding back for a bigger budget go around with the Silmarillion material? Utterly crazy. 

 

 

It's not an adaptation at all. It's a show based upon supplementary material.

[Mikes]

2 hours ago, kensei said:

Or you could read the Lord of The Rings above, which gives its properties

 

What Gandalf knew of the properties. The old unreliable narrator. Also the writing from the History of ME came after he wrote LOTR. It's not hard to see where the writers on ROP were drawing their inferences from.