Xbox 2 specs

[Venice Cull]

What if they just kept it at 8GB? Surely by then, the price would be miniscule?

I asked that very question. Apprently Hardrives prices don't go down, but the size of the drive increases for the same price.

[Hitcher]

It'll make it easier to upgrade your HD after you've had it chipped.

Good idea.

[Spacehost]

Wasn't announced, was rumoured. Sony have since said they'll be emulating for backwards compatability for the Playstation, I think.

They did software emulation for the PSone on PS2, so it makes sense that they carry it forward. It'd probably take longer to engineer backwards compatibility out, wouldn't it? If they just model a PS2 in software on PS3, that is...

Why BluRay discs tho? I mean, 20-odd GB, aren't they? Will developers need that? Would bump the price up a bit.

[Sng]

EDIT:

Ah..

SCE boss confirms PS3 backwards compatibility

Rob Fahey 14:23 02/09/2003

World not exactly in shock, but nice to know all the same

Sony Computer Entertainment boss Ken Kutaragi has confirmed that the PlayStation 3 will feature backwards compatibility with the PS2 and PSone, ensuring continued support for older software formats in the new hardware.

Speaking to Japanese newspaper Asahi Shimbun, Kutaragi-san attributed some of the success of the PS2 to the console's ability to play PSone games as well as PS2 native titles, stating that this was "a matter of security... [PS2] offers a sense of insurance because it is compatible with PSone and DVD-Movies."

This trend - started by Sony with the PS2, as backwards compatibility in home consoles was certainly not the norm before then - is set to continue with the PS3, which will offer emulation for the PS2 and hence for the PSone.

"PSone runs on the PlayStation 2 through emulation rather than actual hardware. PlayStation 3 will offer the same compatibility for PS2 software and the format will continue forever," he explained.

It's expected that Microsoft's successor to the Xbox will also offer backwards compatibility with current hardware - although the recently announced decision to partner with ATI rather than NVIDIA may cause trouble in this respect, according to some graphics experts.

"ATI's hardware runs the same sort of pixel shaders and so on that the NVIDIA chipset does," one graphics programmer working on Xbox games explained to us, "but getting the hardware to exactly mimic the behaviour of an NVIDIA part could be very tricky... It'll be interesting to see if Microsoft can get Xbox 2 to play Xbox games without glitches, especially ones that have been written to tie in closely with the console's specs."

- GamesIndustry.biz

[Sng]

I was certain it has the actual PS1 processor in it.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

I was certain it has the actual PS1 processor in it.

I think it does. I don't believe it's a pure software emulator in PS2.

[Sng]

The specs say;

l/O

CPU Core: Current PlayStation CPU

Clock Frequency: 33.8 MHz or 37.5 MHz (selectable)

Sub Bus: 32 Bit

Interface Types: IEEE1394, Universal Serial Bus (USB)

Communication: via PC-Card PCMCIA

Disc Media: DVD-ROM (CD-ROM compatible)

So I guess it's that bit of hardware that makes it possible.

[SomeNaiveChump]

I was certain it has the actual PS1 processor in it.

yes it does. there is no emulation involved.

runs PS2 games != runs PSone games

[Pob]

Can someone who knows something about games programming, perhaps Mr Pickford, explain to me if having a hard drive unlocks doors to programmers, allowing them to do things that can't be done with the limited space on Flash memory?

I ask this because games like Halo are massively improved by the persistent nature of the carnage wrought by the player on each of the massive level, made possible by the Xbox hard drive.

Compare this to the PS2-centric GTA games, in which cars/people/debris disappears as soon as you turn away from it.

If Sony and MS decide to jettison HDDs for the next round of consoles, will this seriously handicap the potential of next-gen sandbox-style games?

[JPickford (retired mod)]

Can someone who knows something about games programming, perhaps Mr Pickford, explain to me if having a hard drive unlocks doors to programmers, allowing them to do things that can't be done with the limited space on Flash memory?

Of course it does. Not that (m)any games make use of the HD in any creative way.

Flash memory is slow and not designed for zillions of read\write cycles.

[PaB]

Flash memory is slow

Slower than a HD?

[Sng]

Yeah, they're only 10MB/sec or something... HDDs are something like 10 times that. Or can be.

[PaB]

Yeah, they're only 10MB/sec or something.

Yup just looked, and thats for Compact Flash II - 9mb/Sec. You average SATA HDD is 150MB/Sec

[Pob]

So, if Sony/MS decide not to include hard drives as standard, future games could be quite seriously held back from fulfilling their potential?

Are people who say hard drives are just for storing music or downloadable content being shortsighted?

[PaB]

So, if Sony/MS decide not to include hard drives as standard, future games could be quite seriously held back from fulfilling their potential?

Are people who say hard drives are just for storing music or downloadable content being shortsighted?

But then how many games make use of the HDD in the Xbox? Halo - Just. And thats only to chache the locations of dead enemies. It doesnt actually affect the gameplay. If developers had made extensive use of the HDD then maybe it would be more of an issue for Xbox 2. As it is, I think Linkster is right, they have seen a revenue stream that they closed off the themselves with Xbox1 in the form of memory cards.

[Pob]

But then how many games make use of the HDD in the Xbox? Halo - Just. And thats only to chache the locations of dead enemies. It doesnt actually affect the gameplay. If developers had made extensive use of the HDD then maybe it would be more of an issue for Xbox 2. As it is, I think Linkster is right, they have seen a revenue stream that they closed off the themselves with Xbox1 in the form of memory cards.

Just because current games don't make use of the hard drive doesn't mean it doesn't have the potential to improve games in the hands of forward-looking developers.

In Halo, you can stash weapons and vehicles, safe in the knowledge they'll be there when you return to the scene 15 minutes later. This *does* affect the gameplay.

How about Half Life 2? The amount the geometry of the levels can be affected by the player looks set to be huge. Could HL2 be ported to a console with no hard drive? (These aren't rhetorical questions, by the way, I'm interested to know).

[Jack]

In Halo, you can stash weapons and vehicles, safe in the knowledge they'll be there when you return to the scene 15 minutes later. This *does* affect the gameplay.

How can you not save the following data onto a memory card?

Weapon Type = Shotgun

XYZ Co-ordinates = XXX

Amount of ammo left = XXX

[Sprite Machine]

*Mentions Blinx*

*runs*.............................

[JPickford (retired mod)]

How can you not save the following data onto a memory card?

Weapon Type = Shotgun

XYZ Co-ordinates = XXX

Amount of ammo left = XXX

Memory Cards aren't designed to be used in realtime and they have a limited number of read\write cycles. So even if they were fast enough to be used like that you would wear them out in no time.

HD's can do a fairly good impression of slow RAM. This *can* be extremely useful in games but it's not something that developers have really explored much. Even on PC's which always have a HD.

[Jack]

*Mentions Blinx*

*runs*.............................

Since you've run, you won't hear me say that Prince of Persia does the whole rewinding time thing too, and that's on all consoles.

[PaB]

Just because current games don't make use of the hard drive doesn't mean it doesn't have the potential to improve games in the hands of forward-looking developers.

I agree - But the fact remains that in 3 years of Xbox development, no one has used the HDD to any great effect. That must factor in to MS thinking.

[Jack]

Memory Cards aren't designed to be used in realtime and they have a limited number of read\write cycles. So even if they were fast enough to be used like that you would wear them out in no time.

HD's can do a fairly good impression of slow RAM. This *can* be extremely useful in games but it's not something that developers have really explored much. Even on PC's which always have a HD.

There's me telt. But surely data doesn't have to be written every time a weapon is dropped? It could just be stored in RAM until the user chooses to save and quit, could it not?

[Sng]

But it would still have to be saved somewhere when you drop it, on RAM or something? I guess it could only remember where so much is, depending on the amount of RAM?

[Sprite Machine]

Memory Cards aren't designed to be used in realtime and they have a limited number of read\write cycles. So even if they were fast enough to be used like that you would wear them out in no time.

Why would it need to be read/written to every time? Wouldn't it be held in RAM when in use, and then saved along with your position in the game to the memory card when you quit, then reloaded back into the RAM when you start again?

[JPickford (retired mod)]

There's me telt. But surely data doesn't have to be written every time a weapon is dropped? It could just be stored in RAM until the user chooses to save and quit, could it not?

Well you are talking about different things there.

The game enhancement being discussed is using the HD to keep track of many, many objects beyond the capacity of RAM alone. In this context a HD is a vast chunk of slow (pretend) RAM. In theory you could make game where you could put a bullethole in every inch of every surface with textures being constantly streamed on and off the HD. RAM would be better but RAM is smaller and more expensive than HD.

The other feature of a HD is that it retains its contents when powered off; this is where the Flash Memory comparison comes in. Here a HD is faster, cheaper (by capacity) and bigger than Flash. In fact it's so big and cheap than nobody ever buys memory cards for the Xbox; thus losing MS a profitable revenue stream.

[Sprite Machine]

Since you've run, you won't hear me say that Prince of Persia does the whole rewinding time thing too, and that's on all consoles.

It doesn't 'record' time though, does it?

[Sprite Machine]

The game enhancement being discussed is using the HD to keep track of many, many objects beyond the capacity of RAM alone.

Aahhh....

Is it hard to do then?

[Sng]

I couldn't see why it would be hard. It would be done all the time if the consoles had massive amounts of RAM.

[Ktw]

Surely a built-in flash card with, say, 256 MB capacity would be fine for save games and some downloadable content? And with 256-512 MB of RAM, you could do some of the (non-existant) caching with that?

[SomeNaiveChump]

Why would it need to be read/written to every time? Wouldn't it be held in RAM when in use, and then saved along with your position in the game to the memory card when you quit, then reloaded back into the RAM when you start again?

the whole point is that you don't need to use any of the RAM, you can just dump the info on the HDD without any RAM side-effects.