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MCU Phase 4 and beyond - Spidey to stay in the MCU! (warning: Endgame and Far From Home spoilers)


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36 minutes ago, deKay said:

She-Hulk is a totally different character.

Part of the Hulk license, alongside Abomination and Leader 

 

Just like the FF license also gave Fox the likes of Galactus and Doom. And the Spider-man license comes with all his villains and side characters, so Marvel can't even use Aunt May without Sony's approval.

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Rewatching Far From Home was a big surprise, it’s way better than I remember, I really loved it. The central cast are just so incredibly charming, and I really enjoyed pretty much everything about it. It’s not as good as Homecoming but it’s definitely really good. 

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God damn Thor 2 is bad. It’s got nothing going for it at all. The best thing about it is the bit where Jane goes to Asgard because it’s a bit interesting seeing a human there. The bad guys are boring, it’s incessantly dour, the action is boring. Even Loki is dull. The plot is so incredibly generic. There’s just nothing. 

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We watched Incredible Hulk at the weekend, it's not "bad" as such (it's probably better than Thor 2) but it is utterly pointless when you know that nothing that happens in this movie is ever referenced again and the next time you see Bruce Banner he's played by someone different. There are even a couple of points where it seems to be setting itself up for a sequel but of course that never happened.

 

What is striking is how out of kilter it is with the general tone of the MCU. There's no levity in there at all, no funny scenes, no wit, just constant chases and punches and explosions, mostly set in the dark. The last 20 minutes is literally a load of CGI kicking the crap out of itself. Glad to move on and get back to more Iron Man, I know IM2 isn't the best movie either but at least it's entertaining.

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6 hours ago, Broker said:

God damn Thor 2 is bad. It’s got nothing going for it at all. The best thing about it is the bit where Jane goes to Asgard because it’s a bit interesting seeing a human there. The bad guys are boring, it’s incessantly dour, the action is boring. Even Loki is dull. The plot is so incredibly generic. There’s just nothing. 


Apparently there was a lot regarding the dark elves which ended up on the cutting room floor sadly.  I think Eccleston was pretty miffed about it.  It’s bottom tier MCU sure but I wouldn’t say it’s bad, it was just surpassed by the movies that came after in almost every way.

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8 minutes ago, Garwoofoo said:

What is striking is how out of kilter it is with the general tone of the MCU. There's no levity in there at all, no funny scenes, no wit, just constant chases and punches and explosions, mostly set in the dark. The last 20 minutes is literally a load of CGI kicking the crap out of itself. Glad to move on and get back to more Iron Man, I know IM2 isn't the best movie either but at least it's entertaining.

 

Well...there wasn’t a general tone at this point. This was only the second movie and it feels like it was retrofitted into the MCU at the last moment. The  fight at the end was diabolical...our cinema screen was particularly dark so we couldn’t see what as happening at all. 

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15 minutes ago, Garwoofoo said:

There are even a couple of points where it seems to be setting itself up for a sequel but of course that never happened.


You never know. Ross turned up 20 films later in civil war but since then he’s been in a few more. I wouldn’t have thought we’d ever see abomination again but apparently he’s going to be in She-Hulk. They may not have used them yet but I think eventually all the MCU sequel and future teases that never went anywhere will probably get used. 

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2 hours ago, Garwoofoo said:

We watched Incredible Hulk at the weekend, it's not "bad" as such (it's probably better than Thor 2) but it is utterly pointless when you know that nothing that happens in this movie is ever referenced again and the next time you see Bruce Banner he's played by someone different. There are even a couple of points where it seems to be setting itself up for a sequel but of course that never happened.

 

What is striking is how out of kilter it is with the general tone of the MCU. There's no levity in there at all, no funny scenes, no wit, just constant chases and punches and explosions, mostly set in the dark. The last 20 minutes is literally a load of CGI kicking the crap out of itself. Glad to move on and get back to more Iron Man, I know IM2 isn't the best movie either but at least it's entertaining.

Incredible Hulk shouldn’t be funny though, really it should be more like a horror film.

 

 

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Afaik Incredible Hulk and Iron Man were both in production at the same time. There was no MCU yet and certainly no 'tone'. When Iron Man was successful thry decided to go with that as the tone for the future movies. ie, they threw both movies out there to see what would stick.

 

The credits scene was added afterwards iirc, after seeing the reception to Iron Man. A scene featuring a Captain America easter egg was cut (banner tries to commit suicide by gun, Hulk spits out the bullet,and as he leaps off you see Captain America's shield frozen underneath the icey wastes where the scene takes place). It was always said that the suicide angle was the reason it got cut but I think they also decided after Iron Man to go in a different direction with Cap.

 

Overall Norton was way better as Banner but it's a shame the movie itself wasn't all that. It set up loads of things but so far only Thunderbolt Ross has returned - with rumours that Red Hulk will also turn up sometime.

 

However, it looks they will go back to deal with a few loose ends of the Hulk movie in the upcoming She-Hulk series as it's rumoured that The Leader will be the big bad. He was hinted at in movie, with his human self (Samuel Sterns, the scientist who tries to help) receiving a dose of gamma in his last scene.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Mr. Gerbik said:

However, it looks they will go back to deal with a few loose ends of the Hulk movie in the upcoming She-Hulk series as it's rumoured that The Leader will be the big bad. He was hinted at in movie, with his human self (Samuel Sterns, the scientist who tries to help) receiving a dose of gamma in his last scene.

Was that Tim Blake-Nelson's character? He was brilliant to Watchmen, it'd be good to see him in the MCU.

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3 hours ago, Welrain said:


Apparently there was a lot regarding the dark elves which ended up on the cutting room floor sadly.  I think Eccleston was pretty miffed about it.  It’s bottom tier MCU sure but I wouldn’t say it’s bad, it was just surpassed by the movies that came after in almost every way.

 

Are there any good articles about that? I'd love to know the full background story, it certainly felt a bit like it had been cut to ribbons. A bit like one of the DC films, just sort of shapeless and un-engaging.

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5 minutes ago, PK said:

 

Are there any good articles about that? I'd love to know the full background story, it certainly felt a bit like it had been cut to ribbons. A bit like one of the DC films, just sort of shapeless and un-engaging.


it’s mentioned here as well as his other gripes...
 

https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a843400/christopher-eccleston-marvel-dishonest-thor-the-dark-world/

 

and 

 

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/thor/thor-the-dark-world-alan-taylor-talks-more-deleted-scenes-and-potential-directors-cut-a89684#gs.ubbpac

 

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10 hours ago, Broker said:

God damn Thor 2 is bad. It’s got nothing going for it at all. The best thing about it is the bit where Jane goes to Asgard because it’s a bit interesting seeing a human there. The bad guys are boring, it’s incessantly dour, the action is boring. Even Loki is dull. The plot is so incredibly generic. There’s just nothing. 

 

I haven't rewatched it since before Age of Ultron came out, but I remember liking The Dark World. Not because of the plot or the villain - I mainly enjoyed it thanks to the jokes involving Thor doing mundane things (Thor riding the Tube!* Thor hanging Mjolnir on a coat hook!). However jokes like those have since become a dime a dozen in the MCU so they probably wouldn't stand out to me now.

 

I really disagree about the action being boring; I thought the portals and gravity warping in the finale were great fun. Black hole grenades are cool. ^_^

 

I also liked the imprisoned Loki/illusion stuff, though his quipping during the escape sequence was one of the few times up to that point when I found the MCU's quippy tone really grated and undermined the stakes.

 

 

* The Cinematic Universe podcast episode on the film spent a long time discussing the inaccurate geography of the Underground journey he took, in a segment they called... Thornington Crescent.

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1 hour ago, Pob said:

Was that Tim Blake-Nelson's character? He was brilliant to Watchmen, it'd be good to see him in the MCU.

Yes, that's him. Tim Roth as Abomination is definitely confirmed for the She-Hulk series so that's another reference to the Hulk movie. Leader us expected to feature, but Tim Blake Nelson hasn't been confirmed yet.

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In the current Immortal Hulk run , the Leader is genuinely horrific and terrifying. And before that he was actually very menacing in the PAD run. But other than that, Leader was always a bit cheesy despite being one of the Hulk's main villains - there's definitely room for Tim Blake Nelson to make an entertaining character out of him.

 

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4 hours ago, SaintAnselm said:

Incredible Hulk shouldn’t be funny though, really it should be more like a horror film.

 

 

 

"Puny god" suggests otherwise.

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She-Hulk will probably be a glimpse into what a Hulk movie could be in the current MCU. As I said above, the Hulk solo movie was shot alongside Iron Man and therefore the MCU tone was not yet established. They probably wanted to do Hulk right out of the gate due to him have the most mass market appeal out of all the Avengers thanks to his 70s live action show (of course at this point all the other Avengers characters are also huge - but they definitely weren't back then). So they never actually made a proper MCU Hulk movie due to those circumstances, the Norton movie was an an experiment in establishing a tone before the MCU actually became a thing - probably they wanted to do a modern take on the 70s show's atmosphere. She-Hulk will hopefully rectify that somewhat.

 

Also, @Harsin the She-Hulk comics actually do have a comedic bent to them ever since the 90s John Byrne series - it had things like breaking the 4th wall for laughs way, way before Deadpool ever did it. So it would be completely in keeping with She-Hulk comic book lore if the D+ series also had a comedic tone to them.

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4 minutes ago, deKay said:

 

"Puny god" suggests otherwise.

That was before Immortal Hulk became one of the best superhero comics ever made. They're full-on horror, and bloody fantastic too. It would be awesome to see that made into a movie but uuuh can't see Disney agreeing.

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Am I alone in not really liking Smart Hulk at all? I'm not super familiar with the character beyond the 70s TV series and the movies, but for me the compelling essence of the character is that struggle between the two facets of Banner, and the unpredictable capacity for violence. I find the fused version just kind of bland. For me, along with Gamer Thor, it's the biggest mis-step of Endgame.

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43 minutes ago, Sabreman said:

Am I alone in not really liking Smart Hulk at all? I'm not super familiar with the character beyond the 70s TV series and the movies, but for me the compelling essence of the character is that struggle between the two facets of Banner, and the unpredictable capacity for violence. I find the fused version just kind of bland. For me, along with Gamer Thor, it's the biggest mis-step of Endgame.

You're not alone with Hulk. As a fan of the character it has ruined Endgame for me as I was too busy being annoyed at what they did with the character and it's the only MCU movie I've watched only once because if it. All the Hulk fans I know agree and a surprising amount of people who don't even especially care about the original comics either way, thought the same.

 

In the comics, Professor Hulk is completely different. He's a literal merger of the savage Hulk and the gray Hulk and Banner, ie the strength of the first,the mean streak craftiness of the second and the genuis intellect of the third. A walking bomb, volatile as hell but himself convinced he's not.

 

In the MCU he's bland and boring and weak. He most resembles the Banner Hulk from the eighties a period in which Banner was in full control of the Hulk. In other words, the timid scientist personality - in the comics it worked because he was slowly unraveling, losing control until the savage personality burst out more uncontrollable than ever, which proceeded to rampage his way through New York, smashing every big name hero in his way to a pulp. In Endgame we only got the bland and boring part of Banner Hulk. Unlike dude Thor there's no redemption arc. He jusr fizzles out, managing to lose his arm and do nothing but hold up a leaky pipe in a basement while the other 3 founding Avengers confront the ultimate bad guy they had been building towards for 10 years. Four founding characters, four core movies, three of them get their moment against Thanos. While the fourth is holding up a leaky pipe and never even comes anywhere near Thanos. 

 

 

There's so much potential with the character, so many timeless story arcs to draw from, so much human drama. The MCU is mostly excellent but after the brilliant moment in the first Avengers movie they completely squandered the Hulk character. 

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31 minutes ago, Mr. Gerbik said:

There's so much potential with the character, so many timeless story arcs to draw from, so much human drama. The MCU is mostly excellent but after the brilliant moment in the first Avengers movie they completely squandered the Hulk character. 

 

Film Crit Hulk agrees:

 

https://www.polygon.com/2019/5/14/18564383/avengers-endgame-hulk-movie-mcu-film-crit

 

Quote

The film does indeed address the impotence conflict of Hulk’s character from the last film, but they do so in a way that’s … troubling to me. Because we simply cut to him as this new Banner-speaking “Huffalo,” and everything’s fine. It’s almost as if you can hear the storytellers say, “Don’t worry folks! He solved it all! And he did it off-screen! A few lines of lip-service should do the trick, and besides, who cares? This new Hulk is dabbing and funny and everything’s fine, just enjoy it!”

 

To be clear, I do think that the new Huffalo is enjoyable as all hell. The character is funny, charming, and something we haven’t really seen before in these films. But my jaw was on the ground when Endgame finished, because the Hulk character has literally nothing to do on any emotional level for most of the running time. He’s just … there. Sure, you can throw as many lines like “I was born to do this” when Hulk reaches for the Infinity Gauntlet as you want, but you can’t tell me that this is part of a psychological journey that was dramatized in the actual story we’ve seen so far. It’s just a convenient moment of seeming destiny.

 

It would have been so much more interesting to have Hulk’s final “Huffalo Catharsis” come through the dramatized action of the story and not part of an obligatory action. Seriously, imagine how much fun these moments would have been in an act of discovery for the audience, much like the joy of getting to see Cap finally wield Thor’s hammer. But instead, his “endgame” happened between movies, and after that point he was just there to explain things and be physically strong and resilient when necessary.

 

You can shout the logic of “hey, it was five years later!” at me all you want, but you shouldn’t save the most important parts of a character’s arc for the time between films. You shouldn’t hand-wave solutions that were set up by multiple films’ worth of struggle.

 

Quote

Ultimately, the MCU gave the Hulk the worst of the half-hearted treatments. The new Huffalo is fun, funny, and, dare I say it, strangely attractive (fight me!). But the problem is that his final arc just became another undramatized lie. And when I think about that promise of the first Avengers movie? The promise of his deeper relationships that followed? When I think about the creative ways the merged Hulks were explored in the comics? Even when I look back at Ang Lee’s flawed but purposeful version? And most of all, when I think about the beautiful integrity of Bill Bixby that was fundamental to the character’s heroism and dramatic crux? Well, I can’t help but feel like the MCU let the point of Hulk’s overall story completely get away from them.

 

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