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MCU Phase 4 and beyond - Spidey to stay in the MCU! (warning: Endgame and Far From Home spoilers)

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Hey, Earth's Mightiest Megathread Posters, Commander Jameson started an actual thread for the film.

 

 

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They may get permission to start integrating X-Men and Fantastic Four in the next 6 months.

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Feige says he hasn’t been given the official green light to start developing stories within the MCU for these characters yet, but he expects to start digging in soon.

 

“We’ve been told it’s looking very, very good and could happen in the first six months of next year,” Feige says. “The notion of the characters coming back is great. It’s nice when a company that created all these characters can have access to all those characters. It’s unusual not to. But in terms of actually thinking about it and actually planning things, we haven’t started that yet.”

 

 

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Continuing my weekly Endgame count-down tonight with a viewing of the series' nadir, Thor: The Dark World.

 

After this hump, the MCU takes a pretty serious leap in quality, which will make it a much easier road to the end goal.

 

Here's my running thoughts on the films I've re-watched recently - giving them a re-watch with the added context of hindsight has allowed me to see them in a new light.

 

1. Iron Man: What needs to be said? RDJ kills it, the armour is excellent, the CG fares surprisingly well given its age. 9/10

 

2. The Incredible Hulk: The MCU's most awkward, least thought of entry. Quite clearly retrofitted late in production to reference Iron Man. Casting Edward Norton is probably the most regrettable mistake in the series. Quite a lot of character dead ends. Despite that, lovely production, and a fun story. 5/10

 

3. Iron Man 2: Widely reviled, undeservedly so. Given modern understanding of the interplay between MCU films, the additional characters don't come across as much like sequel advertising as like part of the overarching narrative. Sam Rockwell absolutely nails it, one of the best antagonists in the entire MCU. Solid sequel. 7/10

 

4. Thor: Definitely showing its age at this stage, both in its CG and in its general tone and storytelling. Anthony Hopkins is excellent, Tom Hiddleston is compentant but yet to find his swagger. Everything to do with Natalie Portman is a total yawn-fest. Thor breaking in to the SHIELD compound is a definite highlight. 6/10

 

5. Captain America: The First Avenger: This does surprisingly well, and works well when taken into the context of the Cap trilogy. It's just as much about Bucky's journey as Cap's. Red Skull is an excellent villain. 6/10

 

6. Avengers Assemble: Total classic, here we see the MCU fun and exciting tone in full force for the first time. Special effects are largely excellent, and does a surprisingly good job of introducing all characters, regardless of what you've seen before. 9/10

 

7. Iron Man 3: One of the worst MCU films in my book. It's story and motivations are completely at odds with the rest of the MCU storylines, Iron Man is all but absent in the film and is comically depowered, the Mandarin misdirect is horribly executed, and the ending makes no sense whatsoever. 4/10

 

8. Thor: The Dark World: Anthony Hopkins couldn't be more obviously phoning it in here, and I don't blame him. I fell asleep just before the big end set-piece. 4/10

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I'm completely at odds with you on IM2 and 3.

 

I think 2 serves absolutely zero purpose to anything other than he find a new element, which could have been done whenever. Everything else is just fluff and the main bad guy and his robot army are shit.

 

Whereas I don't get the hate for 3. Iron Man isn't himself after New York, he even alludes to that, he's suffering from PTSD after what he saw in the worm hole. I don't know how you can see him as comically depowered either, after all he's just a man in a mech suit. His foes in this have powers beyond his comprehension (hence why he keeps evolving his suit in future films). I also loved the Mandarin reveal as it’s so left field no one saw it coming. It all makes more sense if you see the One Shot short, they did after the fact (which should have been the post credit), where it implies that they used the Mandarins name to scare people and he’s not happy about it. I know we shouldn’t reply on stuff like that, but I do wish Marvel would follow up on it. Unfortunate with the events of IW it feels like earth terrorists are beyond Iron Man now.

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On 29/12/2018 at 18:34, cubik said:

Is Pepper a zombie now?

 

Marvel Zombies in the MCU confirmed.

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8 minutes ago, Stigweard said:

I'm completely at odds with you on IM2 and 3.

 

I think 2 serves absolutely zero purpose to anything other than he find a new element, which could have been done whenever. Everything else is just fluff and the main bad guy and his robot army are shit.

 

Whereas I don't get the hate for 3. Iron Man isn't himself after New York, he even alludes to that, he's suffering from PTSD after what he saw in the worm hole. I don't know how you can see him as comically depowered either, after all he's just a man in a mech suit. His foes in this have powers beyond his comprehension (hence why he keeps evolving his suit in future films). I also loved the Mandarin reveal as it’s so left field no one saw it coming. It all makes more sense if you see the One Shot short, they did after the fact (which should have been the post credit), where it implies that they used the Mandarins name to scare people and he’s not happy about it. I know we shouldn’t reply on stuff like that, but I do wish Marvel would follow up on it. Unfortunate with the events of IW it feels like earth terrorists are beyond Iron Man now.

 

The main thing that stuck out for me about him being depowered is that about 3 times, for decreasingly effective comic effect, something hits his armour and it all just falls to bits. In Iron Man 1 he gets hit by an anti-aircraft tank shell and barely takes a scratch. In 3 his armour is totally decimated when it's hit by a truck.

 

The Mandarin is initially done well, but making him a figure of fun totally undoes all that. Not nearly as good as Justin Hammer, who is basically a cynical mirror image of Tony Stark, with nearly the same kind of swagger. A perfect Ying to each others Yang.

 

Also, the end makes no sense on multiple levels. He explodes all his suits and gives the impression that he's done with Iron Man, only for that to be completely ignored in Ultron. Pepper gets turned into super-burny woman at the end but that just gets fixed offscreen and is never addressed again.

 

A really good alternative which would have given Iron Man a satisfying arc similarly to Cap would have been if they'd revealed the real Mandarin to be the guy they were obviously foreshadowing to be the Mandarin in IM1, and used the Demon In A Bottle storyline as a sub-plot. That could have tied in nicely to the PTSD thing.

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31 minutes ago, mansizerooster said:

7. Iron Man 3: One of the worst MCU films in my book. It's story and motivations are completely at odds with the rest of the MCU storylines, Iron Man is all but absent in the film and is comically depowered, the Mandarin misdirect is horribly executed, and the ending makes no sense whatsoever. 4/10

 

YES!

It also feels like an odd ending to everything that's come up to that point. eurgh. It's crap. 

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I agree with the ending which is kinda of the problem of all the directors and writters having free reign. But wasn't him destorying the suits a symbolic gesture anyway, it wasn't to say he's never going to be Iron Man again, it's to show he over with whatever was making him create his army of suits.

 

The Pepper ending is shit though.

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54 minutes ago, deKay said:

 

Marvel Zombies in the MCU confirmed.

 

I thought you might be talking about Stan Lee's cameo in endgame here.

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4 minutes ago, Duckula said:

 

I thought you might be talking about Stan Lee's cameo in endgame here.

 

I think it'd be quite a fitting send off if Thanos killed him or something.

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49 minutes ago, mansizerooster said:

 

The main thing that stuck out for me about him being depowered is that about 3 times, for decreasingly effective comic effect, something hits his armour and it all just falls to bits. In Iron Man 1 he gets hit by an anti-aircraft tank shell and barely takes a scratch. In 3 his armour is totally decimated when it's hit by a truck.

 

The Mandarin is initially done well, but making him a figure of fun totally undoes all that. Not nearly as good as Justin Hammer, who is basically a cynical mirror image of Tony Stark, with nearly the same kind of swagger. A perfect Ying to each others Yang.

 

Also, the end makes no sense on multiple levels. He explodes all his suits and gives the impression that he's done with Iron Man, only for that to be completely ignored in Ultron. Pepper gets turned into super-burny woman at the end but that just gets fixed offscreen and is never addressed again.

 

A really good alternative which would have given Iron Man a satisfying arc similarly to Cap would have been if they'd revealed the real Mandarin to be the guy they were obviously foreshadowing to be the Mandarin in IM1, and used the Demon In A Bottle storyline as a sub-plot. That could have tied in nicely to the PTSD thing.

 

26 minutes ago, Stigweard said:

I agree with the ending which is kinda of the problem of all the directors and writters having free reign. But wasn't him destorying the suits a symbolic gesture anyway, it wasn't to say he's never going to be Iron Man again, it's to show he over with whatever was making him create his army of suits.

 

The Pepper ending is shit though.

 

Yeah, the ending is dealt with in a couple of ways. Firstly, I never thought he was giving up for good, just that he finally understood that it wasn't the suits that made him a hero.  It was him.  No 3 was all about the suits and him trying to build the ultimate suit and the ending is him realising that the difference between him and someone else isn't the suits, but simply him. 

 

Plus I think Civil War referenced/retconned this by mentioning that he was back in the game because Loki's sceptre was never stolen and that he never stopped after that. This was more for the folks who thought in 3 he has retired as opposed to my interpretation. 

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A really annoying plot-hole in 3:

 

For a large period of time, he's having trouble powering his suit and eventually resorts to hooking it up to a car battery to recharge it.

 

Isn't the central conceit that the suits are powered by the arc reactor in his chest? How was he not able to use that? Also, surely a car battery wouldn't come close to providing enough energy to power an Iron Man armour?

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1 hour ago, mansizerooster said:

A really annoying plot-hole in 3:

 

For a large period of time, he's having trouble powering his suit and eventually resorts to hooking it up to a car battery to recharge it.

 

Isn't the central conceit that the suits are powered by the arc reactor in his chest? How was he not able to use that? Also, surely a car battery wouldn't come close to providing enough energy to power an Iron Man armour?

 

It's to jump start it, is it not? Not power it.

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6 hours ago, mansizerooster said:

 

The main thing that stuck out for me about him being depowered is that about 3 times, for decreasingly effective comic effect, something hits his armour and it all just falls to bits. In Iron Man 1 he gets hit by an anti-aircraft tank shell and barely takes a scratch. In 3 his armour is totally decimated when it's hit by a truck.

 

The Mandarin is initially done well, but making him a figure of fun totally undoes all that. Not nearly as good as Justin Hammer, who is basically a cynical mirror image of Tony Stark, with nearly the same kind of swagger. A perfect Ying to each others Yang.

 

I think that the initial Mandarin reveal is one of the best and funniest moments in the whole MCU. And it's a great idea to have all the imagery surrounding him up to that point be so a little too calculated to push America's buttons on what a terrorist threat is.

 

The problem is not what they did with the Mandarin, the problem is that what they replaced him with as the main threat could never hope to live up to that. (Will come back to this at the end of this post.)

 

Quote

Also, the end makes no sense on multiple levels. He explodes all his suits and gives the impression that he's done with Iron Man, only for that to be completely ignored in Ultron.

 

I've seen some fan commentary rationalising away Tony Stark's inconsistencies between films as being part of his general pattern of swinging wildly in opposite directions as he overcompensates for his own mistakes. E.g. in IM3 he tries to cope with his PTSD by building numerous suits to protect himself - but eventually realises he doesn't need them. Except his response is to decide that instead of armouring himself, he needs to put "a suit of armour around the world" , and to achieve that of course he needs to put the suit on again (plus as a side-effect he also gets over the objection to drone suits that he had in IM2). Then that doesn't go well (to put it mildly!) so because he feels guilty he decides that he and his teammates need to be internationally regulated.

 

But really, that's all rationalising it after the fact. The real reason that Iron Man 3 ends like it does is because at the time, Marvel Studios and Robert Downey Jr had not finalised a deal on whether he works make any more appearances in the MCU. And the reason that when he did come back he was wearing the armour again is because there's no way that Marvel would have Tony Stark in a film but not Iron Man!

 

Quote

A really good alternative which would have given Iron Man a satisfying arc similarly to Cap would have been if they'd revealed the real Mandarin to be the guy they were obviously foreshadowing to be the Mandarin in IM1, 

 

Or, something that would fit even better within the movie, have it turn out that Rebecca Hall's character had been the real villain, instead of Killian. But apparently toys of her would not sell as well as Guy Pearce action figures:

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/iron-man-3-rebecca-hall-clarifies-why-marvel-reduced-her-role-a7309446.html

 

The "All Hail the King" one-shot kinda felt like them responding to the fan backlash by hedging their bets on what direction they might want to take the character in future.

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What's this craziness!? IM3 is one of the highlights of the Marvel films. There's so much to like about it after the risible number 2. The moment when all the suits arrive at the end is great, and the Mandarin stuff and main bad guy are all excellent. 

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58 minutes ago, APM said:

What's this craziness!? IM3 is one of the highlights of the Marvel films. There's so much to like about it after the risible number 2. The moment when all the suits arrive at the end is great, and the Mandarin stuff and main bad guy are all excellent. 

The main problem with Iron Man 3 is that the big scene at the end where all the suits turn up was in the trailer.

Stupidy stupid spoiler that ruined what would otherwise have been a great surprise scene.

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2 minutes ago, cubik said:

The main problem with Iron Man 3 is that the big scene at the end where all the suits turn up was in the trailer.

Stupidy stupid spoiler that ruined what would otherwise have been a great surprise scene.

I get that, but having avoided it as i didn't like 2, it was great for me. 

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17 hours ago, mansizerooster said:

Continuing my weekly Endgame count-down tonight with a viewing of the series' nadir, Thor: The Dark World.

 

After this hump, the MCU takes a pretty serious leap in quality, which will make it a much easier road to the end goal.

 

Here's my running thoughts on the films I've re-watched recently - giving them a re-watch with the added context of hindsight has allowed me to see them in a new light.

 

1. Iron Man: What needs to be said? RDJ kills it, the armour is excellent, the CG fares surprisingly well given its age. 9/10

 

2. The Incredible Hulk: The MCU's most awkward, least thought of entry. Quite clearly retrofitted late in production to reference Iron Man. Casting Edward Norton is probably the most regrettable mistake in the series. Quite a lot of character dead ends. Despite that, lovely production, and a fun story. 5/10

 

3. Iron Man 2: Widely reviled, undeservedly so. Given modern understanding of the interplay between MCU films, the additional characters don't come across as much like sequel advertising as like part of the overarching narrative. Sam Rockwell absolutely nails it, one of the best antagonists in the entire MCU. Solid sequel. 7/10

 

4. Thor: Definitely showing its age at this stage, both in its CG and in its general tone and storytelling. Anthony Hopkins is excellent, Tom Hiddleston is compentant but yet to find his swagger. Everything to do with Natalie Portman is a total yawn-fest. Thor breaking in to the SHIELD compound is a definite highlight. 6/10

 

5. Captain America: The First Avenger: This does surprisingly well, and works well when taken into the context of the Cap trilogy. It's just as much about Bucky's journey as Cap's. Red Skull is an excellent villain. 6/10

 

6. Avengers Assemble: Total classic, here we see the MCU fun and exciting tone in full force for the first time. Special effects are largely excellent, and does a surprisingly good job of introducing all characters, regardless of what you've seen before. 9/10

 

7. Iron Man 3: One of the worst MCU films in my book. It's story and motivations are completely at odds with the rest of the MCU storylines, Iron Man is all but absent in the film and is comically depowered, the Mandarin misdirect is horribly executed, and the ending makes no sense whatsoever. 4/10

 

8. Thor: The Dark World: Anthony Hopkins couldn't be more obviously phoning it in here, and I don't blame him. I fell asleep just before the big end set-piece. 4/10

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Iron Man is all but absent in the film

 

Tony Stark is Iron Man, you doof. He even says so at multiple points in the film. It’s not like a secret or something.

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4 hours ago, Mr Cochese said:

 

Tony Stark is Iron Man, you doof. He even says so at multiple points in the film. It’s not like a secret or something.

 

Oh I'm so sorry, I should have specified Tony Stark inside and operating the Iron Man armour. Sorry for all the confusion. You doof.

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On 21/01/2019 at 14:37, mansizerooster said:

The main thing that stuck out for me about him being depowered is that about 3 times, for decreasingly effective comic effect, something hits his armour and it all just falls to bits. In Iron Man 1 he gets hit by an anti-aircraft tank shell and barely takes a scratch. In 3 his armour is totally decimated when it's hit by a truck.

His new armour is modular, which is why it falls apart more easily. It's not an inconsistency.

 

On 21/01/2019 at 15:40, mansizerooster said:

Isn't the central conceit that the suits are powered by the arc reactor in his chest? How was he not able to use that? Also, surely a car battery wouldn't come close to providing enough energy to power an Iron Man armour?

His original suit was powered by that. The other suits, ones that operate on their own, can't be; so they either use an independant arc reactor (like Rhodey's suit) or some other power supply. The Mk.42 can separate and its parts operate independentally of one another, which means they must be powered individually too. I can't imagine there's an arc reactor inside each piece, that would be silly. So maybe the suit needs a little jump start to get it going.

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On 21/01/2019 at 14:08, mansizerooster said:

Continuing my weekly Endgame count-down tonight with a viewing of the series' nadir, Thor: The Dark World.

 

After this hump, the MCU takes a pretty serious leap in quality, which will make it a much easier road to the end goal.

 

Here's my running thoughts on the films I've re-watched recently - giving them a re-watch with the added context of hindsight has allowed me to see them in a new light.

 

1. Iron Man: What needs to be said? RDJ kills it, the armour is excellent, the CG fares surprisingly well given its age. 9/10

 

2. The Incredible Hulk: The MCU's most awkward, least thought of entry. Quite clearly retrofitted late in production to reference Iron Man. Casting Edward Norton is probably the most regrettable mistake in the series. Quite a lot of character dead ends. Despite that, lovely production, and a fun story. 5/10

 

3. Iron Man 2: Widely reviled, undeservedly so. Given modern understanding of the interplay between MCU films, the additional characters don't come across as much like sequel advertising as like part of the overarching narrative. Sam Rockwell absolutely nails it, one of the best antagonists in the entire MCU. Solid sequel. 7/10

 

4. Thor: Definitely showing its age at this stage, both in its CG and in its general tone and storytelling. Anthony Hopkins is excellent, Tom Hiddleston is compentant but yet to find his swagger. Everything to do with Natalie Portman is a total yawn-fest. Thor breaking in to the SHIELD compound is a definite highlight. 6/10

 

5. Captain America: The First Avenger: This does surprisingly well, and works well when taken into the context of the Cap trilogy. It's just as much about Bucky's journey as Cap's. Red Skull is an excellent villain. 6/10

 

6. Avengers Assemble: Total classic, here we see the MCU fun and exciting tone in full force for the first time. Special effects are largely excellent, and does a surprisingly good job of introducing all characters, regardless of what you've seen before. 9/10

 

7. Iron Man 3: One of the worst MCU films in my book. It's story and motivations are completely at odds with the rest of the MCU storylines, Iron Man is all but absent in the film and is comically depowered, the Mandarin misdirect is horribly executed, and the ending makes no sense whatsoever. 4/10

 

8. Thor: The Dark World: Anthony Hopkins couldn't be more obviously phoning it in here, and I don't blame him. I fell asleep just before the big end set-piece. 4/10

 

9. Captain America: Winter Soldier: The Russo Brother's MCU debut, and what a drastic uptick in quality. One of the MCU's best. The action set-pieces are breathtaking, with a personal highlight being Fury's car chase. A hinted-at Cap/Natasha romantic sub-plot is regrettably trampled on by subsequent films. The tone and pacing of this film is absolutely spot-on. 9/10

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7 hours ago, mansizerooster said:

A hinted-at Cap/Natasha romantic sub-plot is regrettably trampled on by subsequent films.

 

I disagree with this. I was not one of those who objected to the Bruce/Natasha pairing in AOU, though I won't defend Cap's romance with Sharon in Civil War, which felt rushed and obligatory (see the "Cap's beard" tweet I posted earlier on this page). But in The Winter Soldier, it was a refreshing change to have male and female heroes team up like that and not have any serious suggestion that they'll get together romantically.

 

I think there should be more platonic friendships between men and women in blockbusters; in Batman Begins I liked the scenes between Bruce Wayne and Rachel Dawes that emphasised their childhood friendship, before she became the idealised lost love that Bruce could never be with.

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Cap also specifically mentions their flirting in AOU as something not serious like Bruce and her being interested in each other.

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