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Xbox Series X - Games Showcase 23 July 5pm BST

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1 hour ago, Alex W. said:

Saccades are quite long compared to the times between frames in games, so I’m not sure it gives a similar effect. And the movements that cause blur in games aren’t necessarily like the shift of focus on a saccade... unless you’re in an FPS and doing some pro-gamer mouse moves. Hmm, I wonder if this is perceived differently in first person versus third person games, and mouse versus stick?

 

I suppose what I mean is a (very) basic similarity between your brain convincing you that you haven't observed motion blur when you've moved your eyes, and a game not applying motion blur when you move the camera.

 

Anecdotally, being someone who plays a lot of FPSs on PC, I find the motion blur applied to camera movements immensely distracting with mouse & keyboard, and much less so when playing on a console with a controller. For me there's a certain sense of physical separation and expectation of delay to moving an FPS camera with a joystick that isn't there with a mouse, but which I don't really have the vocabulary to describe properly. But maybe that makes mouse-driven camera movement more analogous to saccades?

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41 minutes ago, SeanR said:
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cicada-1590519374.png?crop=0.658xw:1.00x

 

cicada?


Yes Shawn, eye cicadas.

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https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2020/05/28/xbox-series-x-next-generation-backward-compatibility/

 

Quote

All Games Play Better on Xbox Series X

Not only should gamers be able to play all of these games from the past, but they should play better than ever before. Backwards compatible games run natively on the Xbox Series X hardware, running with the full power of the CPU, GPU and the SSD. No boost mode, no downclocking, the full power of the Xbox Series X for each and every backward compatible game. This means that all titles run at the peak performance that they were originally designed for, many times even higher performance than the games saw on their original launch platform, resulting in higher and more steady framerates and rendering at their maximum resolution and visual quality. Backwards compatible titles also see significant reductions in in-game load times from the massive leap in performance from our custom NVME SSD which powers the Xbox Velocity Architecture. As I play through my personal backlog as part of our internal testing, all of the incredible games from Xbox One and earlier play best on Xbox Series X.

 

The team was not content to just rely on the increased hardware performance to improve your playing experience. The team developed new platform level capabilities to ensure all of your games continue to get even better. In partnership with the Xbox Advanced Technology Group, Xbox Series X delivers a new, innovative HDR reconstruction technique which enables the platform to automatically add HDR support to games. As this technique is handled by the platform itself, it allows us to enable HDR with zero impact to the game’s performance and we can also apply it to Xbox 360 and original Xbox titles developed almost 20 years ago, well before the existence of HDR.

 

 

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We are also creating whole new classes of innovations including the ability to double the frame rate of a select set of titles from 30 fps to 60 fps or 60 fps to 120 fps.

 

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The whole backwards compatibility is effectively the reason I'll be buying one. Their new stuff is undoubtedly going to be great and all, but I'll be running those on my PC in all likelihood. 

 

However, the thought of playing through RDR once again, but at 60fps (finger's crossed) is a pretty decent argument for it.

 

Probably not the argument for most rational people, but it works for me perfectly well.

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That's really intriguing. I know they were able to add HDR to some Xbox 360 games on the Xbox One because they were already internally using a larger colour space, but "reconstruction" makes me wonder if it's something like a very sophisticated version of the HDR-simulating effects some TVs can apply to SDR video.

 

Who needs next-gen exclusives when Microsoft can make backwards compatability technically exciting.

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Microsoft are making all the right noises with their BC offerings. As someone who skipped the 'One' generation completely, being able to play super duper versions of my 360 and OG Xbox games is really enticing.

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15 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

That's really intriguing. I know they were able to add HDR to some Xbox 360 games on the Xbox One because they were already internally using a larger colour space, but "reconstruction" makes me wonder if it's something like a very sophisticated version of the HDR-simulating effects some TVs can apply to SDR video.

 

Who needs next-gen exclusives when Microsoft can make backwards compatability technically exciting.

They showed a video a few weeks back of it being implemented into an older Gears title I think. Might be worth taking a look at if you haven’t seen it.

 

Apologies, I don’t have a link.

 

 

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38 minutes ago, JoeK said:

However, the thought of playing through RDR once again, but at 60fps (finger's crossed) is a pretty decent argument for it.

 

Yeah, I'm actually considering holding off going back to RDR2 to see if it gets a 60fps upgrade for the XSX.

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No chance of them ever picking up continuing 360 backwards compatibility? So many classics never got ported over whilst so much shite did. Also same with original Xbox, they made a big song and dance about that initially then after the first releases quietly put it to bed, my presumption was that the costs of getting original Xbox games running on the Xbone out weighed the financial benefits. 

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Presumably they're just mapping the luma levels of Rec709 > Rec2020, which wouldn't involve changing anything on the game side of things. It's still very cool though.

 

Uncapping the frame-rate, however, must surely depend entirely on how the game was coded. I presume it's much easier with common engines like Unreal.

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44 minutes ago, Oh Danny Boy said:

No chance of them ever picking up continuing 360 backwards compatibility? So many classics never got ported over whilst so much shite did. Also same with original Xbox, they made a big song and dance about that initially then after the first releases quietly put it to bed, my presumption was that the costs of getting original Xbox games running on the Xbone ouT weighted the financial benefits. 

 

I imagine they'll add further 360 titles, but not necessarily in any great quantity and even less so with original Xbox games. I think the practicality and cost of resolving licensing issues (and some publishers wanting to keep the option of remasters in play) means that the chances of many games reaching BC are gradually dwindling as time passes - it seems reasonable to conclude that if licensing and publisher willingness weren't the sticking points we'd have seen many missing games by now.

 

I've given up hope of games like JSRF hitting the service. If they do, fantastic, but it doesn't seem likely. I think it's more probable that MS will continue to build upon the solution (as they've indicated) and further significant improvements to games already on the service will become the main selling point.

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9 hours ago, Alex W. said:


Saccades are quite long compared to the times between frames in games, so I’m not sure it gives a similar effect. And the movements that cause blur in games aren’t necessarily like the shift of focus on a saccade... unless you’re in an FPS and doing some pro-gamer mouse moves. Hmm, I wonder if this is perceived differently in first person versus third person games, and mouse versus stick?

 

Weird thought: Do people get a saccade like experience when a movie does a jump cut?


I’m gonna write a film where someone uses this phenomena to rob a bank while technically invisible due to a convoluted series of eye-catching moments that allow them to move unseen during the saccades they cause. 
 

Actually, someone else write it give me 50%. Cool. 

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4 hours ago, Down by Law said:

Microsoft are making all the right noises with their BC offerings. As someone who skipped the 'One' generation completely, being able to play super duper versions of my 360 and OG Xbox games is really enticing.


Apologies is this is all obvious, I haven’t been following closely. I had an account on 360, never had a One and sold my 360 years ago. Would I be able to reactivate that account on a XSX (it’s still ‘alive’ on Windows) and access the live arcade games I had?

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4 minutes ago, Pockets said:


I’m gonna write a film where someone uses this phenomena to rob a bank while technically invisible due to a convoluted series of eye-catching moments that allow them to move unseen during the saccades they cause. 
 

Actually, someone else write it give me 50%. Cool. 

I think that’s Christopher Nolan’s next film.

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4 minutes ago, Pockets said:


Apologies is this is all obvious, I haven’t been following closely. I had an account on 360, never had a One and sold my 360 years ago. Would I be able to reactivate that account on a XSX (it’s still ‘alive’ on Windows) and access the live arcade games I had?

As long as they're BC, yeah. 

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12 hours ago, Alex W. said:

when your eyes saccade they don't "hide motion blur", they subtract the entire saccade from your conscious experience* precisely because the eye readily experiences motion blur with rapid movements.

 

Is what I said. When you said that blur in games is mirroring realworld vision, I added the crossed-wires caveat that you might be talking about films when you spoke of realism.

 

You describe our eyes as if everything's running at WipEout speed, when blur's routinely applied to motion that'd be far too sedate in real life.

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4 hours ago, CarloOos said:

Presumably they're just mapping the luma levels of Rec709 > Rec2020, which wouldn't involve changing anything on the game side of things. It's still very cool though.

 

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6 minutes ago, Escaped said:

 

Is what I said. When you said that blur in games is mirroring realworld vision, I added the crossed-wires caveat that you might be talking about films when you spoke of realism.

 

You describe our eyes as if everything's running at WipEout speed, when blur's routinely applied to motion that'd be far too sedate in real life.


I think I misunderstood, but I would agree that there are plenty of cases of excessive motion blur. I don’t think that Unreal demo is one of them or that it’s done to hide technical issues, but it is a technique that can be done wrong easily 

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The demo doesn't apply blur through the cave section and it looks fantastic whenever you pause it. But we don't know if blur's a creative or hardware choice during the flight at the end, and if it's the latter then it brings up the question of how much we'll benefit from SSD streaming if 4K's too much of a resource hog.

 

And that's where I jumped to dissing sample-and-hold, because while it doesn't dictate that games must have motion blur, it means we perceive it regardless. So what I'm really wondering is whether we'd shake free of this trend for blur (which I obviously hate!) if we still had CRT-grade motion. Plus, repeating myself again, we wouldn't need 4K over 1440 on screens without natives.

 

And that's what I was getting at originally: that throwing this much console power at modern screens is a crying shame in my book, when the latter's quest for resolution is to combat their own intrinsic faults as much as to improve our experience.

  

10 hours ago, PK said:

But maybe that makes mouse-driven camera movement more analogous to saccades?

 

Screen size and viewing distance are a factor, in that you might make sharp movements while your eyes stay relatively fixed. Playing at 120Hz or above helps, but we shouldn't need to be hitting such high framerates for comfort. For cumulative input latency for twitch games, yes!

 

Apropos, BC Tekken Tag 2 has an extra frame of input lag, which is really quite impressive for emulation. For me, though, PS1-3 BC+ would be amazing. I'd rather that and no PS4 BC than PS4-only.

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21 minutes ago, Escaped said:

The demo doesn't apply blur through the cave section and it looks fantastic whenever you pause it.

 

Of course there's also motion blur in the caves, the camera moves more slowly so it's less apparent.

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It does make more sense to apply it universally, but like you say: I don't perceive it at walking pace so it doesn't bother me. I had to stop in Everybody's Gone to the Rapture to take in its sights properly, and that's about as slow as it gets.

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I think your original premise makes little sense. Here's a still from the flying sequence, it's not like motion blur is used excessively. 

 

996483069_Annotation2020-05-28221628.thumb.jpg.c09ecf02a1b471d766b92bf4157ea4f1.jpg

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3 hours ago, Hitcher said:

 

 

Fascinating stuff, thanks! Thing is inverse colourspace LUTs are nothing new but I had wondered how they'd get around the 'stepping' caused by taking a potentially 8-bit output and mapping it upwards, sounds like whatever AI-learning approach they're using is the secret ingredient. The way he's describing it made it sound like a dynamic process rather than a straight transform, so it's either that or a very thorough LUT they used this process to make.

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7 hours ago, Phil said:

I imagine they'll add further 360 titles, but not necessarily in any great quantity and even less so with original Xbox games. I think the practicality and cost of resolving licensing issues (and some publishers wanting to keep the option of remasters in play) means that the chances of many games reaching BC are gradually dwindling as time passes - it seems reasonable to conclude that if licensing and publisher willingness weren't the sticking points we'd have seen many missing games by now.

I believe the emulation teams have moved to other projects now - I'm not certain of this, but that's the impression I get. 

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5 hours ago, Wahwah* said:

I believe the emulation teams have moved to other projects now - I'm not certain of this, but that's the impression I get. 


I’d imagine an equivalent has been working for ages on making sure the Series X behaves itself when playing all the old games.

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6 hours ago, Wahwah* said:

I believe the emulation teams have moved to other projects now - I'm not certain of this, but that's the impression I get. 


they moved onto this.

but the final paragraph of the blog states...

 

The team also continues to listen to feedback from the community on additional titles you would like to see added to the compatibility program. Resurrecting titles from history often presents a complex mix of technical and licensing challenges, but the team is committed to doing everything we can to continue to preserve our collective gaming legacy.

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They implied as much back when the BC programme ended. The BC team was going to dedicate itself fully to ensuring everything Bone ran well on the XsX, and now it's clear that they were working at the same time on adding fancy extras like HDR to older games and being able to double the framerate on select titles. Which justs cements their reputation in my mind as incredible technical wizards, the Bone BC programme is miraculous. But even though they never outright said it, there was always a good chance that once the XsX stuff was up and running smoothly, that they would revisit 360 and Xbox OG titles.

 

It was mentioned a few times that the cost of re-licensing on top of the actual engineering makes it unlikely that we'll see many more new BC titles. Which could very well be, but it's not just about tangible profit, outright purchases of digital BC titles. It's also a PR thing, a hearts and minds thing - whenever Microsoft adds new BC titles, especially if there are a few fan favourites among them, it's easy marketing. Doubly so for Enhanced titles, especially among the hobbyists as "free remasters". And, most importantly, it's an efficient way of expanding and advertising their Game Pass library, and enticing lapsed 360 gamers back. 

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16 hours ago, Oh Danny Boy said:

No chance of them ever picking up continuing 360 backwards compatibility? So many classics never got ported over whilst so much shite did. Also same with original Xbox, they made a big song and dance about that initially then after the first releases quietly put it to bed, my presumption was that the costs of getting original Xbox games running on the Xbone out weighed the financial benefits. 

 

It just so happens...

 

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2020-05-28-microsoft-listening-to-fan-feedback-on-more-xbox-back-compat-games

 

 

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