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Star Trek: Picard - It’s the hope that kills you


layten
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15 hours ago, Mr Ben said:

What I find baffling, is why the Romulans never bothered with Data.

 

It was so exasperating trying to discuss this wrinkle in the retcon on reddit. I knew that official show subreddits often become echo chambers, and won’t brook criticism, but the startrek reddit is exactly the same. Setal spent time with Data in TNG’s ‘The Defector’ and never showed any dislike or contempt, but wasn’t shy when it came to insulting Worf in Klingon. Similarly, none of the Romulans who encounter Data, once him and Picard have been discovered in ‘Reunification’, show any notable reactions either. Setal even mentions that he knows a dozen Romulan cyberneticists who would ‘give anything’ to sit so close to Data. So the Romulans loathe synthetics but have cyberneticists? Seems like a pretty thin line to dance along. 

 

Shortly before I was downvoted to oblivion, all I had was ‘oh, that’s just the military. We never saw the general population!’ So, the military have no problem when it comes to showing their disgust regarding disability (LaForge’s blindness) and intolerance to other races (Worf), but androids are ignored? 

 

Yes, but the Romulans are secretive, I was told. Very secretive. That’s when I realised, as a race, they’re a hazardously good fit for the J.J Abrams ‘mystery box’ style of plotting. The Iconians even more so. I’ll certainly still be following reviews with interest to see how any of this ties together, or if the viewers will have to endure ‘Lost’ levels of anti-climax. 

 

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While antagonists, I feel the Romulans are just the maxi version of ‘hard men making hard choices’, the Renegade option if you will. They’re aware of something terrible thanks to the Prothean beacon they found and will not risk anyone fucking things up for everyone.

 

Conversely, Picard is decent, well meaning chap who believes in everyone’s right to existence and that we should all come together to overcome whatever threats await us. A true Paragon of virtue.

 

In short: Michael Chabon played way too much Mass Effect.

 

They need to address Data, I feel, though I suspect I know who they’ll hand-wave it: Oh hadn’t risen in Starfleet yet, Soong was repeatedly considered dead, no one came close to replicating his work until after Data was destroyed, an Enterprise officer was too difficult and high profile to reach, etc. Bonus points if they suggest the entire reason the Romulans came back again after decades of isolation was because they’d gotten word of Soong’s creations.

 

All that’s left to do is have Lore show up as the harbinger of an unknowable cosmic threat (wouldn’t be the first time) and the stage is set for a ludicrous season 2. I’m just thankful the Terrible Secret of Space had nothing to do with the Vulcans/Romulans creating the Borg because I had an awful feeling they were going to go there at one point.

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34 minutes ago, Garibaldi said:

 

It was so exasperating trying to discuss this wrinkle in the retcon on reddit. I knew that official show subreddits often become echo chambers, and won’t brook criticism, but the startrek reddit is exactly the same. Setal spent time with Data in TNG’s ‘The Defector’ and never showed any dislike or contempt, but wasn’t shy when it came to insulting Worf in Klingon. Similarly, none of the Romulans who encounter Data, once him and Picard have been discovered in ‘Reunification’, show any notable reactions either. Setal even mentions that he knows a dozen Romulan cyberneticists who would ‘give anything’ to sit so close to Data. So the Romulans loathe synthetics but have cyberneticists? Seems like a pretty thin line to dance along. 

 

Shortly before I was downvoted to oblivion, all I had was ‘oh, that’s just the military. We never saw the general population!’ So, the military have no problem when it comes to showing their disgust regarding disability (LaForge’s blindness) and intolerance to other races (Worf), but androids are ignored? 

 

Yes, but the Romulans are secretive, I was told. Very secretive. That’s when I realised, as a race, they’re a hazardously good fit for the J.J Abrams ‘mystery box’ style of plotting. The Iconians even more so. I’ll certainly still be following reviews with interest to see how any of this ties together, or if the viewers will have to endure ‘Lost’ levels of anti-climax. 

 

 

Is it not that this dislike is only within the super secret sect of the Tal Shier. Everyone else is none the wiser and doesn't give a shit about androids. 

 

If that's not the case then you're completely correct in your observations. I'm not saying slavish adherence to cannon is always necessary but at least some attempt at consistency is required. 

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1 hour ago, McCoy said:

 

Is it not that this dislike is only within the super secret sect of the Tal Shier. Everyone else is none the wiser and doesn't give a shit about androids. 

 

If that's not the case then you're completely correct in your observations. I'm not saying slavish adherence to cannon is always necessary but at least some attempt at consistency is required. 

 

Well, Picard’s housekeeper mentions how Romulan society in general doesn’t use A.I or synthetics, so there must’ve been an effort to indoctrinate the population into believing that they’re bad things. You could try to tell people that A.I and synthetics are unnecessary, but Romulans in general are technologically advanced enough to easily be able to see the utility in adopting either or both. 

 

[EDIT] For that matter, why aren't the Zhat Vash worried about holograms? It's been established that if you leave a hologram on for long enough then it can become sentient, and the Doctor's mobile emitter technology would be a game-changer if replicated.

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2 hours ago, McCoy said:

 

Is it not that this dislike is only within the super secret sect of the Tal Shier. Everyone else is none the wiser and doesn't give a shit about androids. 

 

 

That was certainly how I read it. Also they mentioned that as soon as they became aware of Data they planted Oh within Starfleet but obviously it took many years for her to rise to a position of power. So presumably it's only now that they have the ability to do anything about it.

 

I think it holds up reasonably well. Of course you can nit-pick.

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4 hours ago, Garibaldi said:

 

It was so exasperating trying to discuss this wrinkle in the retcon on reddit. I knew that official show subreddits often become echo chambers, and won’t brook criticism, but the startrek reddit is exactly the same. Setal spent time with Data in TNG’s ‘The Defector’ and never showed any dislike or contempt, but wasn’t shy when it came to insulting Worf in Klingon. Similarly, none of the Romulans who encounter Data, once him and Picard have been discovered in ‘Reunification’, show any notable reactions either. Setal even mentions that he knows a dozen Romulan cyberneticists who would ‘give anything’ to sit so close to Data. So the Romulans loathe synthetics but have cyberneticists? Seems like a pretty thin line to dance along. 

 

Shortly before I was downvoted to oblivion, all I had was ‘oh, that’s just the military. We never saw the general population!’ So, the military have no problem when it comes to showing their disgust regarding disability (LaForge’s blindness) and intolerance to other races (Worf), but androids are ignored? 

 

Yes, but the Romulans are secretive, I was told. Very secretive. That’s when I realised, as a race, they’re a hazardously good fit for the J.J Abrams ‘mystery box’ style of plotting. The Iconians even more so. I’ll certainly still be following reviews with interest to see how any of this ties together, or if the viewers will have to endure ‘Lost’ levels of anti-climax. 

 

It'd been handwaved away already when I last looked. Its even on Memory Alpha's Cyberneticist page now:

Quote

In the Star Trek: Picard episode "Maps and Legends", Laris stated that the Romulans did not study cybernetics. According to showrunner Michael Chabon, "being a 'Romulan cyberneticist' is kind of like being a 'Nazi doctor.'"

Also the lines in the TNG episode are:

Quote

SETAL (continuing) I know a host of Romulan cyberneticists who would love to be this close to you.

DATA I do not find the concept particularly appealing.

SETAL Nor should you.

Which sort of backs this up, however at the time it was after the Maddox incident where Bruce wanted to disassemble Data, so Data's reaction is hardly surprising. There are plot holes, but at least its been somewhat retconned and covered a bit. Not 100% perfectly, but nothing is usually when retcons are involved.

 

The whole holograms can also be sentient thing has been totally ignored in Picard, I assume because they want to focus on androids/synths, but then having 4+ holograms on the show, and also using the same actor is a bit meh,. especially when he cant do accents for toffee, is a bit cheeky. A simple line about the Doctor from Voyager would have been a nice nod at least.

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Thanks for the info. Definitely a reach for me! As you say, Maddox had already established that the only way to really find out how Data ticked would be to disassemble him. So obviously he wouldn’t relish being examined by anyone else. 

 

The Romulan cyberneticists/Nazi doctors comparison feels like shutting down the conversation with a striking/slightly upsetting mental image that nobody would want to poke at any further. To do so almost seems in bad taste. Suffice it to say, I’m pretty sure cyberneticists don’t swear a Hippocratic oath.

 

As to ‘nit-picking’, I don’t see that any of the things I’ve raised fit that description. Nit-picking is noting a lamp moved between rooms in different episodes, that someone is using a scientific tricorder instead of a medical one, or that you can briefly see a boom-mike. It’s stuff that most people would never notice. This is stuff that slapped me in the face. 

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57 minutes ago, Mr Ben said:

It'd been handwaved away already when I last looked. Its even on Memory Alpha's Cyberneticist page now:

Also the lines in the TNG episode are:

Which sort of backs this up, however at the time it was after the Maddox incident where Bruce wanted to disassemble Data, so Data's reaction is hardly surprising. There are plot holes, but at least its been somewhat retconned and covered a bit. Not 100% perfectly, but nothing is usually when retcons are involved.

 

The whole holograms can also be sentient thing has been totally ignored in Picard, I assume because they want to focus on androids/synths, but then having 4+ holograms on the show, and also using the same actor is a bit meh,. especially when he cant do accents for toffee, is a bit cheeky. A simple line about the Doctor from Voyager would have been a nice nod at least.

They have been in talks with Robert Picardo so something may come of that.

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Also a Vulcan wearing sunglasses, even if she is half Vulcan, is ridiculous.

 

The reason given is absolute rubbish too:

Quote

In "The End is the Beginning", Oh is shown wearing sunglasses. This was specified in the script as a homage to Danish-French actress Anna Karina. [2] It was previously established by T'Pol in "The Forge" that Vulcans don't need eye protection due to the existence of an inner eyelid.

On that account, Michael Chabon said the following on this post's comment section: "Let me try to be clearer: Oh has read Jurati's psychological profile, and something in it, a tendency in Jurati's relationship to authority figures, has led her to prepare both her manner and her appearance very carefully. [...] This is behavior that cops, soldiers, and teenagers, among others, engage in all the time."

Its actually established in ToS episode, where Spock goes blind temporarily (Operation -- Annihilate!) due to Bones using him as a guinea pig to eradicate the parasite from his nervous system.

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Discovery set the bar for how established canon was going to be treated so it really is no surprise at how loose it seems on Picard.

 

I am eager to see how they depict the Klingon look in this era. Imagine Worf looking like a Discovery Klingon and the fan uproar. I have to imagine they will go with the Worf we are so used to seeing (that's if we even see Klingons at all in this series).

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3 hours ago, Jg15 said:

Discovery set the bar for how established canon was going to be treated so it really is no surprise at how loose it seems on Picard.

 

I am eager to see how they depict the Klingon look in this era. Imagine Worf looking like a Discovery Klingon and the fan uproar. I have to imagine they will go with the Worf we are so used to seeing (that's if we even see Klingons at all in this series).

Yes, but Worf is a Northern Klingon.

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If you think Mass Effect contains a single original concept you're going to shit when you discover the genre of 'science fiction'

 

I liked episode 8, it feels like lots of stuff the show has set up is paying off well. I don't think the structure of having a zillion subplots is sustainable for every episode, but it did at least mean the stuff that misfired (the ridiculous, Voyager-esque hologram japes) took up mercifully little screen time. Michael Chabon actually writes the characters with some depth (and jokes!). The massacre of the Borg drones was a good scene - something that would have been done with Data or Geordi reading from a sensor output in TNG, but impressive and more effective to actually see first hand. Even Romulan baddy lady managed to not completely suck for once - I guess she finally got the memo that this isn't Doctor Who.

 

The little Picard speech about optimism felt like a good gesture to fans who've been understandably irked by the whole grimdark corrupt Starfleet stuff, I just hope the remainder of the series follows through with that.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, MK-1601 said:

If you think Mass Effect contains a single original concept you're going to shit when you discover the genre of 'science fiction'

 

 

Pithy, but also disingenuous. I certainly wasn’t arguing that, anyway. Very little is original in sci-fi anymore, but there’s a difference between unwittingly replicating older works, and sharing chunky similarities to a big gaming trilogy that only concluded eight years ago. 

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Do directors/writers still think that 

 

Spoiler

A character's eyes turning black and a bit of synthy voice is scary

 

They could have gone for 

 

Spoiler

Implants coming alive and more merging with the ship's connectors.  They have the rating to do a nice level of body horror.  

 

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So why are the Borg even in this?

 

Is it pure Hugh/Seven plot device, or something more?

 

It feels a bit weird that they are so prominent and yet so irrelevant to the story at this point although someone has explained to me that the Artefact work could have all been about trying to use time travel technology to undo the Romulan disaster.

 

I am wondering if the “big bad” that awoke all those thousands of years ago was The Borg?  

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28 minutes ago, sprite said:

So why are the Borg even in this?

 

Is it pure Hugh/Seven plot device, or something more?

 

It feels a bit weird that they are so prominent and yet so irrelevant to the story at this point although someone has explained to me that the Artefact work could have all been about trying to use time travel technology to undo the Romulan disaster.

 

I am wondering if the “big bad” that awoke all those thousands of years ago was The Borg?  

 

The Borg are probably still considered the most powerful race, despite Voyager's attempts at neutering them. Plus if the writers haven't watched all of TNG then they damn sure haven't seen much of VOY. 

 

The Borg would still be good box office to the public I think.

 

The conflation of the Borg and the Romulans might be a homage to the abandoned plans for TNG S1 and S2, but I might be giving them too much credit on that one.

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To hazard a guess, I'd say the producers saw that Netflix stat about almost every Borg episode being in the top 10 most watched eps of any ST series and, given Picard and Seven are two of the most popular characters of the Next Gen era, things just progressed naturally from there.

 

Did I imagine it or did someone say some of the side material has Worf as the current captain of the Enterprise?

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22 hours ago, Jg15 said:

Discovery set the bar for how established canon was going to be treated so it really is no surprise at how loose it seems on Picard.

 

I am eager to see how they depict the Klingon look in this era. Imagine Worf looking like a Discovery Klingon and the fan uproar. I have to imagine they will go with the Worf we are so used to seeing (that's if we even see Klingons at all in this series).

 

A still of Worf was on a viewscreen in one of the first episodes. He looked like normal, regular Worf.

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13 minutes ago, DeciderVT said:

 

A still of Worf was on a viewscreen in one of the first episodes. He looked like normal, regular Worf.


I’m not sure that the different appearances are that much of a problem.

They’ve had Romulans with and without ridged foreheads in Picard so the Klingons could also have races looking very different. 

If your only experience of humans was NASA astronauts from the 60s and then you met groups of Japanese, African or Aboriginal people that’s similar levels of change. 

 

Granted, you have to exclude the TOS era Klingons from this as the same actors returned in DS9 looking very different.

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  • layten changed the title to Star Trek: Picard - It’s the hope that kills you

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