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Star Trek: Picard - Third time's the charm!


layten
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I feel, being black, when we talk about race it's a very different thing to me. So I said I thought the Holocaust wasn't about race. And it made people very angry. I'm getting a lot of mail from folks and a lot of anger. But I thought it was a salient discussion because as a black person I think of race as being something that I can see...

When you talk about being a racist, you can't call this racism. This was evil. This wasn't based on skin. You couldn't tell who was Jewish. You had to delve deeply and figure it out. My point is: they had to do the work. If the Klan is coming down the street and I'm standing with a Jewish friend: I'm going to run. But if my friend decides not to run, they'll get passed by most times. Because you can't tell who is Jewish. You don't know.

 

 

Whoopi seems pretty ignorant of the racism Jewish people face, especially in relation to Nazi Germany. 

 

Though, I think I understand the point she is failing to make, it's about being able to disguise yourself from potential bigotry.

 

I've had conversations with some of my friends who are PoC talking about the differences in discrimination between them and myself as a gay man.

 

If I go into an environment which I think might be particularly homophobic I have the ability to hide or deflect away from my sexuality t (though to quote mystique  -"I shouldn't have too")

but this isn't an option for PoC.

 

I can't speak to how true this would be to Jewish people who face bigotry today and it certainly wasn't true for life in nazi Germany so it was a terrible point for reference for Whoopi to use but I get the broader point that some people might be in a better position to "hide" from racism than others to a certain extent. 

 

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2 hours ago, The Grand Pursuivant said:

 

I am honestly not sure what PP is trying to achieve by reacting to you in this way. Being able to admit your own ignorance for the sake of enlightening yourself on a subject is a virtue as far as I'm concerned. Especially, when it comes to issues as complex and important as racism. I have long been a proponent of the idea that the best way for people to end racism is to listen to the victims of it, so I'll try and turn the atmosphere of the conversation by saying thanks for asking, and I hope I can do my best to answer.

 

 

I find that one of the main barriers to talking productively about racism are, strangely enough, the use of words that most people use to talk about racism. White, black, race. I find all of these terms to be completely reductive and basically useless. They mean so many things to so many people that they don't really mean anything. But that's not why using them is a barrier. We use words like that all the time. They are a barrier because they are words whose meanings and usage were created by racists to describe race and further racism. It is odd that Irish is considered something other than white on forms if you consider racism to be based solely on a persons skin. But Racism is about way more than just skin colour. Just think about how the Irish have been historically perceived by the English for the last 1,000 years. It wasn't that long ago that No Dogs No Blacks No Irish was actually a thing. When you do that, it makes perfect sense for forms you fill out in England to have White Irish as a 'racial' identifier. Racism is about oppression in the name of power. Skin colour is just an incredibly easy way to use racism to further that end.

 

And this is the problem that Whoopie Goldberg is currently facing. Her understanding of racism is based exclusively on her experiences of it. And those experiences are of a black woman in one of the most racist countries to have ever existed, where being black has been the raison d'etre and main tool of racists to oppress. I cannot even imagine what kind of prejudice she has faced because of the colour of her skin in a country like the USA. Especially, given her age. She lived through the Civil Rights movement. I can completely understand why, to her, racism is solely about the colour of someone's skin. She admits this herself. That is the lense that she both experiences and understands racism. It's just that her view is incredibly narrow, and it has tripped her in to revealing her ignorance of a topic she clearly has no place in commenting on, causing her to do an accidental anti-semitism. I genuinely don't think she's anti-semitic, I just think she's just completely ignorant. Arguably dangerously ignorant, given that she thinks identifying Jews is difficult to do, rather than realising that identifying Jews is difficult to do in the present day because of what happened when identifying who was Jewish was as easy as just looking at them.

 

When it comes to Jews being a race, I guess technically we are. But I don't like the term race. Especially because religion, culture and identity play just as important a role in being Jewish as race does. I prefer ethnicity. And there are several Jewish ethnicities. The two most populated ones are Ashkenazi (Eastern European heritage, pale white skin, straight brown/black hair) and Sephardi (North African/Middle Eastern heritage, tanned skin, curly dark black hair). When it comes to things like DNA it depends on how you use DNA to define race. Ashkenazi's are prone to lactose intolerance and are also highly at risk of having children with a genetic disease called Tay Sachs, which cannot be detected in the womb and the sufferers of have a life expectancy of around 5 years. I personally know a couple who can't have children because they are carriers. I'm Ashkenazi and I consider myself to be part of that ethnic grouping.

 

So on that basis, no, I don't consider myself to be 'white'. I have white skin, but I'm Jewish, which is it's own different thing. I don't get persecuted because of the colour of my skin, but I do get persecuted for completely different bullshit arbitrary reasons. I also get almost exclusively persecuted by people who are white, as have most other Jews for most of history. That is probably the main reason I don't consider myself part of that racial grouping. But it also proves my earlier point. Terms like white are reductive, and using it doesn't really get anybody anywhere worth going when it comes to talking about race.

 

If we lived in a world where people actually cared about understanding and accepted that sometimes there is nuance and difficulty involved in these kinds of discussions we'd be talking about the one interesting thing Whoopi Goldberg did talk about. Which is something that never gets discussed. Are the terms racism and anti-semitism distinct in and of themselves, with no overlap, or are they different branches of the same form of prejudice? The current prevailing argument, in Jewish circles at least, is that they are, and they should be, which is why the IHRA was conceived of and then created in the first place. I've always questioned this, and it seems obvious to me, given what Whoopi Goldberg has said, that pursuing this line of argument only serves to further distance groups of people who suffer from discrimination, oppression and prejudice from eachother, rather than helping to bring them together to create a stronger voice in service of justice, equality and fairness for all.

 

Thank you for that, the podcast I listened to kinda skims over a lot of what you said as it was pretty wide ranging going over 100+ years of American Jewish history in 33 minutes but to see it from such a personal point of view brings a better context and I'm sure I'll read it a few times again to let it sink in properly. 

 

The whole ethnic group nuance thing is something I can kind of understand in a small way personally although I admit nowhere near as fully as what the Jewish community does as I consider myself a Welsh speaking Celt primarily but that's the best way for me to see myself in what you're putting across and empathise. 

 

I'm a 6'1 white guy that played rugby most his life, I'm never going to experience any real racism in my life, the closest I get is sheep shagger. I really have no concept of racism other than the empathy I can feel when it's put in front of me mainly on a tv show or movie but that's not going to stop me asking a question about it when there are parts that make me scratch my head and wonder.

 

🥰

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1 hour ago, The Grand Pursuivant said:

Am I the only one who completely forgot that space Legolas was in this show?

 

This season is going to be worse than the first one isn’t it?


If Troi and Riker aren’t in it, yes.

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I’m pretty sure nobody wants to keep talking about this, but I watched Whoopi Goldberg on Colbert and it was an awful attempt to make amends. She basically said she still doesn’t believe she was wrong but she made a mistake in saying it. Also she was like “stop messaging me, I get it OK?” which came across as very dismissive. Didn’t do any good for anyone. It put a big dent in my respect for her.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Apparently coming to Prime on Friday. Which is a pain, as I was hoping to avoid hate watching, as per Discovery.

 

I can only hope they’ll fuck up the launch (again, as per Discovery) and it’ll be on Pluto, where I can avoid it.

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Hit Paramount Plus yesterday in the States, and reviews of the opener are quite positive.

 

Apparently it ignores most of season 1 and attempts a soft relaunch, which is fine by me.

 

Probably still going to be shite, but I am in anyways for: 

Spoiler

Guinan and Q.

 

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I know I'm just going to watch this feeling sorry for Patrick Stewart. I wonder if he knows or cares how much damage he's doing to the character and his own personal Star Trek legacy. At least Discovery is its own thing that can be safely ignored but this is Actual Jean-Luc Picard (and other TNG alumni) and that's much harder to dismiss.

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17 minutes ago, Garwoofoo said:

I know I'm just going to watch this feeling sorry for Patrick Stewart. I wonder if he knows or cares how much damage he's doing to the character and his own personal Star Trek legacy. At least Discovery is its own thing that can be safely ignored but this is Actual Synthetic Robot Body Jean-Luc Picard (and other TNG alumni) and that's much harder to dismiss.

 

I expect he doesn't care over the sound of all the money I'm guessing they threw at him

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On 02/02/2022 at 18:18, Harsin said:

Lol

 

spacer.png

Is the lol at just how shit that looks, or what looks like a really weird photoshop fuck up with the double of Picard's right arm?

 

Or all of the above

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Not bad.

 

 

Spoiler

Guinan and Q were introduced perfectly!

 

LCARS was looking sweet. The whole aesthetic really captured a future 90s Trek look. 

 

Pill jumping in to decipher the radio signal wasn't great. Let the bridge staff do their thing!

 

A little bit too much fast paced gun action maybe. 

 

WOuld have been better if the story exposition was done during spaceflight, doing so would have been an easy way to make the galaxy seem vast. Rather than warping anywhere in a couple of seconds. (Picards shuttle for example!)

 

I don't like the camera work. Passing the badge to Picard looked far too unnatural, as if it was trying to hard to ensure you understood the significance. 

 

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6 hours ago, layten said:

Looks like this is getting good reviews all over the place. Looking forward to watching it later. :) 


Half way through, and it’s so much better than Discovery (low bar, I know)

 

<edit> all done. That was really well done, and the clips from the rest of the series look superb.  

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12 Monkeys (the TV series) was better than it had any right to be and the guy in charge of that is showrunning season which is the only reason I have any hope at all for this series.

 

Shame he's lumbered with some of the shite characters though.

 

"I murdered by my boyfriend and got off on diminished capacity lollzers and I'm drunk"

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1 hour ago, Harsin said:

 

"I murdered by my boyfriend and got off on diminished capacity lollzers and I'm drunk"

To be fair, the main character helped destroy over 50 Federation Starships and was then immediately given his command back. :lol: 

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9 minutes ago, layten said:

To be fair, the main character helped destroy over 50 Federation Starships and was then immediately given his command back. :lol: 

 

Don't forget Android Girl who had one bad afternoon and immediatly leapt to thinking destroiying all sentient life in the netire galaxy was a proportional response.

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Trying to remember the characters in this from Season 1 - I've got:

 

Robo-Picard

Captain Lung Cancer

Space Legolas

Aggravating Science Lady

Personality Transplant Seven of Nine

The woman who had a twin or something

RAFFI

Boy Band Romulan

 

Is that everyone? I can't wait to see these guys again :lol:

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  • layten changed the title to Star Trek: Picard - Third time's the charm!

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