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Silly mistakes by companies that should know better


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5 minutes ago, Stanley said:

Forget twin stick, you could move with the yellow face buttons and aim with the analogue stick, you didn't need two pads. 

 

It actually became really difficult for me to adapt to using a Dualshock for FPS's at first because controls were reversed and you used right stick for aim, left for movement.

 

But Timesplitters was the first game to really nail the twin stick controls imo.

 

The controls in Timesplitters were another step along the road towards Halo, in my view. They were good, but it was also very twitchy and (IIRC) tried to replicate the Goldeneye method of having the stick move the whole view around, combined with the ability to have fine control over aiming where you could hold a button and move the cursor around on the screen. That bit didn't quite work because the DS2 was so twitchy and had a massive dead zone, and had to compensate with really aggressive auto-aim - whereas with Halo, you just aimed using the stick, with subtle bits of aim assist that you barely noticed. 

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5 minutes ago, probotector said:

Then again, Nintendo of Japan has gutted NoA and arguably, 90s NoA were a powerhouse.

 

Nintendo's biggest mistakes were:

 

1. Dumping Gumpei after the Virtual Boy.

2. Giving Miyamoto too much power instead of fostering more talent, something they are now addressing

3. Making Iwata the top dog.

Didn't he oversee Wii and DS?

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3 minutes ago, Kevvy Metal said:

 

Not only that, but the original version only had mouse look if you held down a keyboard key. Which you could thankfully define which key from the menus. 

I used to assign mouse-look to the space bar then jam a coin in it so I could play it like a modern shooter. 

 

IIRC, you could turn it on permanently through a console command (mlook_1, I think). Not exactly a model of discoverability, but such a revelation in terms of actual control that it was hard to go back to using the keys.

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1 minute ago, K said:

 

The controls in Timesplitters were another step along the road towards Halo, in my view. They were good, but it was also very twitchy and (IIRC) tried to replicate the Goldeneye method of having the stick move the whole view around, combined with the ability to have fine control over aiming where you could hold a button and move the cursor around on the screen. That bit didn't quite work because the DS2 was so twitchy and had a massive dead zone, and had to compensate with really aggressive auto-aim - whereas with Halo, you just aimed using the stick, with subtle bits of aim assist that you barely noticed. 

No Timespiltters had true look and move controls as standard, like Halo. Halo was obviously the better game.

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4 minutes ago, probotector said:

 

He also oversaw the Wii-U and 3DS

 

So Wii, DS, Wii-U and 3DS. I'd say 3 out of those 4 could be considered successful. And when I say successful, I mean they were bloody massive. Wii-U was an obvious failure, but the others were blockbuster hardware in their respective generations.

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1 hour ago, Stanley said:

Sony had already implemented it as standard on the PSone, that should have been enough for any competitor to consider it an important feature, they weren't just adding it for sake of it regardless of whether it had yet to really take hold and be used as the way to control all 3D games. Sega's R&D should have gone further and deeper or even if they didn't fully appreciate the possibilities, included it anyway, what did they have to lose by adding it, or indeed by releasing a new controller alongside games such as Quake III and Unreal Tournament ? Instead they decided a keyboard and mouse were better tools for the job.

 

I don't think anyone is claiming that alone is why Dreamcast failed, the issues are too many to list, but it was still a massive oversight.

 

And PS2 didn't launch until 2000 by which time both Xbox and Game Cube were nearing the end of their development phase and going into production, both used dual analogue controls - so that wasn't a reaction to PS2.

 

I mean, you can see prototype cube controllers without a right stick so it almost certainly was a response to Sony. By the same argument you could say it was a huge oversight by Sony not having triggers on the PS2 controller as Sega had already done that and now years later its the standard so why didn't they guess that then? Obviously it would be just as stupid as what you're saying though.

 

1 hour ago, Stanley said:

Yes I know it wasn't standard at the start on Playstation, there were no analogue controls then, but it became standard once the PS One was released and all games pretty much had analogue controls by then. 

 

Not two stick analogue controls though, the ps1 used it as a shit alternative to the d pad and nothing else outside Quake and Ape Escape. Having a single analogue stick was essential if you were releasing in 1999, having two was not.

 

37 minutes ago, Stanley said:

Goldeneye used it, I played it using exactly the controls we're discussing.

 

This proving that those controls can work with one stick and your GoldenEye example is bollocks.

 

27 minutes ago, Stanley said:

Timesplitters was a PS2 launch game and had perfect twin sticks controls, but even that wasn't the first, and obviously we're ignoring Goldeneye, because.

 

It either only required one stick or was such a niche example using two controllers that its functionally irrelevant to any discussing about predicting the future, given that the two controller thing had literally no impact on the industry.

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20 minutes ago, rgraves said:

 

So Wii, DS, Wii-U and 3DS. I'd say 3 out of those 4 could be considered successful. And when I say successful, I mean they were bloody massive. Wii-U was an obvious failure, but the others were blockbuster hardware in their respective generations.

He may have also died before its release but the switch is a natural evolution of the wii u concept and I would be very surprised if he didn't play a role in its creation.

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33 minutes ago, Broker said:

 

I mean, you can see prototype cube controllers without a right stick so it almost certainly was a response to Sony. By the same argument you could say it was a huge oversight by Sony not having triggers on the PS2 controller as Sega had already done that and now years later its the standard so why didn't they guess that then? Obviously it would be just as stupid as what you're saying though.

 

 

Not two stick analogue controls though, the ps1 used it as a shit alternative to the d pad and nothing else outside Quake and Ape Escape. Having a single analogue stick was essential if you were releasing in 1999, having two was not.

 

 

This proving that those controls can work with one stick and your GoldenEye example is bollocks.

 

 

It either only required one stick or was such a niche example using two controllers that its functionally irrelevant to any discussing about predicting the future, given that the two controller thing had literally no impact on the industry.

You're right Broker, Sega were just victims of circumstance and had no way of knowing that everyone else would be using dual stick designs two years later making their controller obsolete. 

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7 minutes ago, Broker said:

If only they'd had you and your precognitive powers working for them we might all be playing on Dreamcast 3's with five sticks on each controller.

Yeah, if only they could have seen into the future, or, you know, had a look at what the competition were upto at the time. 

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1 hour ago, Stanley said:

Forget twin stick, you could move with the yellow face buttons and aim with the analogue stick, you didn't need two pads. 

I’m fairly sure Outrigger on DC did this. It had a shit load of options.

 

In fact ever FPS on the Dreamcast ‘could’ have done that if you are happy with aim on the right stick and movement on left. I’m not sure you need a second analogue stick if your reference point is Goldeneye working without needing one.

 

You only really need dual analogue on a controller for an FPS if you want to control look with your right hand. I mean most top level FPS players on PC are playing with digital movement (wasd etc..)

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51 minutes ago, Stanley said:

Yeah, if only they could have seen into the future, or, you know, had a look at what the competition were upto at the time. 

 

I don't even understand why they bothered to design their own console, as you've made it clear it was incredibly foolish to not copy every specification of their competitors design without any thought for their usefulness. They should have just produced the PS2, then they'd be the rich ones!

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2 minutes ago, Broker said:

 

I don't even understand why they bothered to design their own console, as you've made it clear it was incredibly foolish to not copy every specification of their competitors design without any thought for their usefulness. They should have just produced the PS2, then they'd be the rich ones!

You take everything so personally. Look you're right Sega made no mistakes, they did everything right.

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43 minutes ago, metallicfrodo said:

I’m fairly sure Outrigger on DC did this. It had a shit load of options.

 

In fact ever FPS on the Dreamcast ‘could’ have done that if you are happy with aim on the right stick and movement on left. I’m not sure you need a second analogue stick if your reference point is Goldeneye working without needing one.

 

You only really need dual analogue on a controller for an FPS if you want to control look with your right hand. I mean most top level FPS players on PC are playing with digital movement (wasd etc..)

Goldeneye worked but once you had dual analogue control it was much better.

 

Quake III was impossible to play properly with the pad IMO.

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On 05/02/2019 at 05:45, Stanley said:

The biggest mistake in recent times, well 6 years ago now, was MS force bundling a Kinect that no one wanted with every Xbox One and handing the market to Sony. What on earth were they thinking? 

They didn't want it until 2019, now we're practically papering the walls with cameras and always-listening devices.

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Iwata was unable to translate the Wii into long term success or convert the casuals into long term customers, most were one and done fad customers, the Wii-U is a direct result of this failure in long term strategy.

 

The 3DS was a similar disaster as the Wii-U initially and had the same problems, people didnt understand it was a new console generation, it was expensive and the new gimmick was shit. They had to take losses to get the price down and eventually got rid of the costly 3D feature. 

 

Arguably, they did the same with the Wii-U when they came up with the Switch, its software library is largely enhanced Wii-U ports, they've slowly erased Wii-U from memory.

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14 minutes ago, probotector said:

Iwata was unable to translate the Wii into long term success or convert the casuals into long term customers, most were one and done fad customers, the Wii-U is a direct result of this failure in long term strategy.

 

The 3DS was a similar disaster as the Wii-U initially and had the same problems, people didnt understand it was a new console generation, it was expensive and the new gimmick was shit. They had to take losses to get the price down and eventually got rid of the costly 3D feature. 

 

Arguably, they did the same with the Wii-U when they came up with the Switch, its software library is largely enhanced Wii-U ports, they've slowly erased Wii-U from memory.

The Wii was around for 6 years and Nintendo's most successful console since the SNES, there is no long-term success in an industry which constantly reinvents itself. I mean without Wii or DS where would Nintendo be now? It seems a bit harsh saying he was Nintendo's biggest mistake, what about Virtual Boy, N64 and Game Cube? 3DS sold more than all those put together.

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1 minute ago, kernow said:

Nintendo have managed to convince themselves they aren't in competition with the others anymore. They want to be, but they wrote themselves out of that with several poor business decisions. 

Yeah that's probably why they're outselling the competition right now, as a result of those poor decisions.

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1 minute ago, kernow said:

But they aren't in the same race! They proclaim. 

Until they want to be 

They haven't said that, Reggie is constantly banging on about wanting all the best content, third party games etc. Right now MS are the only ones being secretive about their sales or the importance of them, but what do you expect? They're not gonna issue a press statement saying how shit they're doing, doesn't mean they aren't competing, of course they are.

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9 hours ago, RubberJohnny said:

Everything SEGA ever did. Reading up on them is fascinating, just an endless stream of baffling decisions, on every level, from software to hardware to marketing, to the point where it's hard to know where to start. Like I found a Dreamcast fan site, and around the launch of that console alone:

  • Got advertising campaign banned in the UK for being misleading, leaving the console with no advertising at launch or for months afterwards
  • The followup advertising campaign went one better and got banned in Europe for "inciting racial hatred"(!)

  • Forgot to fill out the customs form in Australia so it launched with only 2 third party games whose devs were more competent
  • Did a big campaign where they'd launch a first party game every week after launch for the first six weeks, only to manage 0/6 because they either all got delayed or cancelled

And this litany of fuckups is followed up with breathless "best console launch evar!11!!!"

 

You can bet all the surviving people involved in this still work in senior roles somewhere.

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On the subject of Sega's lack of foresight in future-proofing the Dreamcast for FPS controls:

 

Remember that the DC lightgun incorporated a D-Pad. That suggests to me that they were trying to look forward and imagine how first-person genres would develop, but they got it wrong by imagining that lightgun games would get better movement controls, whereas it actually turned out that FPSs got better aiming controls.

 

To my knowledge, the only Dreamcast exclusive FPS in development that intended to make use of the lightgun control was Take the Bullet, a vaguely GE/No One Lives Forever-esque spy themed FPS. After it was cancelled, I remember the story of its development being mentioned briefly in an Edge feature on unreleased games; IIRC the development studio (Red Lemon) was a bit of a shambles.

 

https://segaretro.org/Take_the_Bullet

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A mat of mine was really looking forward to Take the Bullet even though there was very little information about it released at the time.

 

One thing sega did fuck up was the Chao game they included on Sonic Adventure for your VMU, that should have been how you raised your MAG on PSO.

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1 hour ago, Stanley said:

You take everything so personally. Look you're right Sega made no mistakes, they did everything right.

 

:lol:

 

Do you genuinely think I care about Sega?! I have literally no personal stake in this whatsoever. The OP asked a question, you gave a stupid answer, I pointed that out, you spent hours flailing around repeating the same idiotic shit while people smarter than me tried to explain it to you.

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Just now, Broker said:

 

:lol:

 

Do you genuinely think I care about Sega?! I have literally no personal stake in this whatsoever. The OP asked a question, you gave a stupid answer, I pointed that out, you spent hours flailing around repeating the same idiotic shit while people smarter than me tried to explain it to you.

I actually agreed with a stupid answer someone else gave and you quoted me, I guess we're all just idiots here, me and all the other people you told were wrong. Good luck, not that you need it with your charm and charisma :)

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14 hours ago, probotector said:

Iwata was unable to translate the Wii into long term success or convert the casuals into long term customers, most were one and done fad customers, the Wii-U is a direct result of this failure in long term strategy.

 

The 3DS was a similar disaster as the Wii-U initially and had the same problems, people didnt understand it was a new console generation, it was expensive and the new gimmick was shit. They had to take losses to get the price down and eventually got rid of the costly 3D feature. 

 

Arguably, they did the same with the Wii-U when they came up with the Switch, its software library is largely enhanced Wii-U ports, they've slowly erased Wii-U from memory.

 

Oh look - a bingo winner! We've not had 'Wii' and 'fad' in the same post for a while. Just like old times. Just needed something about attach rates for a full house.

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