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PlayStation 5 - Next gen is expensive


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It was exactly that, a mid gen refresh. 
 

Sony gave peeps options without putting off existing fans.

 

There is little point in the full blown X approach. It was expensive and just further undermined their earlier design decisions.

 

I would suggest all you Xbox fans take it to the system wars thread. 
 

:sherlock:

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1 hour ago, probotector said:


You mean Sony took the balanced approach while MS threw money at their problem?

 

Sony didn’t have to drastically improve their console because they got it right first time.

 

 


If you consider investing more money into hardware design “throwing money at the problem,” then yes, I suppose they did. 
 

The end result is an objectively better product. I don’t look at my Pro and think “God, I’m happy Sony didn’t put as much thought into this when they made it.”

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36 minutes ago, probotector said:

There is little point in the full blown X approach. It was expensive and just further undermined their earlier design decisions.

It does exactly what the Pro does, but better, in addition to offering enhanced versions of earlier games and backwards compatible titles / something both the original Xbox One offered and that the Xbox One S went on to improve, so entirely in line with earlier decisions whilst having an eye towards the future. It undermines nothing. 

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15 hours ago, PeteBrant said:

PS3 outsold 360 in the end.

Not that it matters.

 

Just to jump in here as a Sony fan but is that borne out by software sales? Because for a while there universities were buying PS3's in bulk to use as cheap networked supercomputers due to some useful quirks of the Cell chip. (Apparently PS4's aren't quite as useful in that regard which is why you don't have stories about PS4 based super computing.)

 

See https://www.theverge.com/2019/12/3/20984028/playstation-supercomputer-ps3-umass-dartmouth-astrophysics-25th-anniversary

 

Quote

 


The Air Force had to convince Sony to sell it the un-updated PS3s that the company was pulling from shelves, which, at the time, were sitting in a warehouse outside Chicago. It took many meetings, but eventually, the Air Force got what it was looking for, and in 2010, the project had its big debut.

 

Running on more than 1,700 PS3s that were connected by five miles of wire, the Condor Cluster was huge, dwarfing Khanna’s project, and it used to process images from surveillance drones. During its heyday, it was the 35th fastest supercomputer in the world.

 

 

 

Impressive stuff but probably not what Sony had in mind.

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8 hours ago, Unofficial Who said:

 

Just to jump in here as a Sony fan but is that borne out by software sales? Because for a while there universities were buying PS3's in bulk to use as cheap networked supercomputers due to some useful quirks of the Cell chip. (Apparently PS4's aren't quite as useful in that regard which is why you don't have stories about PS4 based super computing.)

 

See https://www.theverge.com/2019/12/3/20984028/playstation-supercomputer-ps3-umass-dartmouth-astrophysics-25th-anniversary

 

 

 

Impressive stuff but probably not what Sony had in mind.

I doubt a few thousand consoles made much difference one way or the other . 

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What are the chances of Sony switching the GPU/CPU configurations at this stage, to outperform the Series X? I'm not talking about a completely different chip-set, but maybe one from the same family so that compatibility can be maintained, but giving more oomph in terms of horsepower?

 

I remember them doubling up the amount of RAM at the 11th hour with PS4, and they might even have switched from DDR3 to GDDR5 but I'm not totally sure about that. Changing CPU/GPU is a much more risky proposition.

 

Would such a move be realistically possible?

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They could make minor adjustments, but they’re not going to drastically change anything without delaying the launch.

 

I don’t think that they’ll bother though. I think we’re heading for a repeat of the Pro/X, where the PS5 will target the best performance that they can get for $399-499 with the Series X aiming for better performance at $100-200 more. The Series S/Lockhart console will be what allows Microsoft to be competitive on pricing.
 

I think that Sony and Microsoft both know what they’re up to and are happy with what they’ve got. Just like what happened with the Pro/X. Different strategy and priorities.

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12 hours ago, Unofficial Who said:

 

Just to jump in here as a Sony fan but is that borne out by software sales?

 

As Microsoft never gave out final numbers for either software sold or consoles sold, it's hard to say either way.

 

The PS3 likely crossed the 1 Billion software units shipped line by the end of its run, as it was really close to that number as of 2017. It actually shipped more software than the Wii, despite selling less hardware.

 

PS3 - 999.4 Million (As of March 31, 2017)

Wii - 921.19 Million (As of now)

 

This is an anglophone world view forum (unsurprisingly) so there will always be a disconnect with what appeals globally versus just in the anglosphere, which has always been Microsoft's traditionally only competitive region. South America is the only other minor battleground they might make up ground this gen, as evidenced by the amount of attention they have been paying that region over the last few years.

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That's the thing. Once you build up such a userbase/fanbase as the PS4 has done now. It is going to take a major mess up at launch for Microsoft to build on it. Another point of note is Sony makes blue ray discs too. So it's in their vested interests that it remains number one in people's minds.

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5 hours ago, Ghosty said:

That's the thing. Once you build up such a userbase/fanbase as the PS4 has done now. It is going to take a major mess up at launch for Microsoft to build on it. Another point of note is Sony makes blue ray discs too. So it's in their vested interests that it remains number one in people's minds.

I wouldn’t put too much faith into Blu-ray being a deciding factor, there  are numerous companies who manufacture Blu-ray (don’t forget Microsoft use the format for the X1!) but as I’m sure you’re aware, it’s a dying format for movies/tv box sets, with sales of physical disc entertainment falling 50% from 2014-2019, whilst sales of subscription based entertainment services (Netflix, Amazon, Apple, Disney) leaping ahead (with a 27% increase in 2018 alone, before the latter 2 big hitters entered the game). Which ever way you look at it, physical entertainment discs will go the way of the dinosaur sooner rather than later. Samsung have already stopped production of Blu-ray players in North America.

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On 03/01/2020 at 14:55, probotector said:

Im pretty sure MS have not made any cash from gaming in 20 years. They’ve made a loss every generation including the 360. Have you forgotten the RROD? That pretty much made sure MS didn’t make anything.

 

You seem to be spending far too much energy in attempting to paint MS in a negative light.

 

Sony didn’t have to drastically improve their console because they got it right first time.

 

First time I've seen chosing a Jaguar CPU being described as getting it right first time...

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7 hours ago, mansizerooster said:

What are the chances of Sony switching the GPU/CPU configurations at this stage, to outperform the Series X? I'm not talking about a completely different chip-set, but maybe one from the same family so that compatibility can be maintained, but giving more oomph in terms of horsepower?

 

Would such a move be realistically possible?

 

Too late to completely revise the custom CPU.  They could tweak the clock speed, but that depends on what cooling system they have gone for.  After recently replacing a launch Pro with a new model the last thing I want is another Jet Engine from Sony :)

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10 minutes ago, replicant said:

 

Jaguar has been an achille's heel this entire generation.  It can never be described as getting it right.

It’s been absolutely fine . Couldn’t give a fuck if the CPU was a hard boiled egg . The games have been stupendously good . 

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5 minutes ago, PeteBrant said:

It’s been absolutely fine . Couldn’t give a fuck if the CPU was a hard boiled egg . The games have been stupendously good . 

 

There is a reason both Sony and MS are investing in the CPU this upcoming gen.  

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40 minutes ago, replicant said:

 

Too late to completely revise the custom CPU.  They could tweak the clock speed, but that depends on what cooling system they have gone for.  After recently replacing a launch Pro with a new model the last thing I want is another Jet Engine from Sony :)

 

I'm not talking about completely revising the CPU, I'm talking about adding to what is already there - adding cores etc. 

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58 minutes ago, mansizerooster said:

 

I'm not talking about completely revising the CPU, I'm talking about adding to what is already there - adding cores etc. 

 

If it is based upon Navi 10 RDNA with 36 CU (40 with 4 redundant) then Sony/AMD can't simply add more compute units.  If XSX is based upon Navi 21 then it is too late for Sony to adopt RDNA2.

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2 hours ago, mansizerooster said:

 

I'm not talking about completely revising the CPU, I'm talking about adding to what is already there - adding cores etc. 


That’s pretty much completely revising the CPU. They’re tightly integrated systems, and everything else should theoretically be then built around usage of this expensive part - from memory and storage bandwidth to any custom stuff such as downclocking it to play PS4 games.

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3 hours ago, PeteBrant said:

It’s been absolutely fine . Couldn’t give a fuck if the CPU was a hard boiled egg . The games have been stupendously good . 

And could have been even better if they were not using a CPU that would have been considered a poor performer in the 2000's. Going with a Ryzen based CPU for the next gen is going to be a bigger upgrade than however much more GPU they throw at the screen.

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4 hours ago, SpookyMulder said:

I wouldn’t put too much faith into Blu-ray being a deciding factor, there  are numerous companies who manufacture Blu-ray (don’t forget Microsoft use the format for the X1!) but as I’m sure you’re aware, it’s a dying format for movies/tv box sets, with sales of physical disc entertainment falling 50% from 2014-2019, whilst sales of subscription based entertainment services (Netflix, Amazon, Apple, Disney) leaping ahead (with a 27% increase in 2018 alone, before the latter 2 big hitters entered the game). Which ever way you look at it, physical entertainment discs will go the way of the dinosaur sooner rather than later. Samsung have already stopped production of Blu-ray players in North America.

 

Streaming 4K is less of a quality picture than a disc. Plus the bandwidth it takes up and you will be looking at ISP's start to charge extra for the overheads in the near future. 

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4 minutes ago, Ghosty said:

 

Streaming 4K is less of a quality picture than a disc. Plus the bandwidth it takes up and you will be looking at ISP's start to charge extra for the overheads in the near future. 

I agree, but the fact is that Blu-ray is a dying format, as are all physical forms of disc based entertainment (sadly). The sales figures don’t lie. This isn’t the 360 vs PS3 era, Blu-ray doesn’t matter any more.

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20 minutes ago, SpookyMulder said:

I agree, but the fact is that Blu-ray is a dying format, as are all physical forms of disc based entertainment (sadly). The sales figures don’t lie. This isn’t the 360 vs PS3 era, Blu-ray doesn’t matter any more.

 

Both next gen consoles will include them because downloading 200GB+ for a 4K game just isn't feasible. Much easier to install the core game off the disc then add a 30GB patch. 

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1 hour ago, PC Master Race said:

And could have been even better if they were not using a CPU that would have been considered a poor performer in the 2000's. Going with a Ryzen based CPU for the next gen is going to be a bigger upgrade than however much more GPU they throw at the screen.

Better how? I mean in what way could Spider-Man or death stranding or last guardian blah blah blah been better with a better cpu that was available at the time of the console being developed?

And if it was  a significantly better CPU , what would have been the impact on the price of the console ?

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Better and more stable framerates? More detailed game worlds? Superior physics simulations? More NPC characters (the first AC game of this gen had woeful performance as Ubisoft overestimated what CPU performance would be available to them with the XB outperforming the PS4 in parts due to its slightly faster CPU)? Just imagine swinging through a massively populated New York as Spiderman. I'm sure talented developers would have put it to good use.

 

AMD's Jaguar architecture was never good, but it was all AMD could integrate into a SoC as Bulldozer was bad. Intel and ARM had much better designs at the time, but AMD offered a complete package at cost at a time when we were not even sure that another generation of consoles would really sell. Luckily for us all. Today AMD has a superb CPU architecture in the shape of Ryzen which will offer a huge jump in CPU ability.

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8 hours ago, PC Master Race said:

Better and more stable framerates? More detailed game worlds? Superior physics simulations? More NPC characters (the first AC game of this gen had woeful performance as Ubisoft overestimated what CPU performance would be available to them with the XB outperforming the PS4 in parts due to its slightly faster CPU)? Just imagine swinging through a massively populated New York as Spiderman. I'm sure talented developers would have put it to good use.

 

AMD's Jaguar architecture was never good, but it was all AMD could integrate into a SoC as Bulldozer was bad. Intel and ARM had much better designs at the time, but AMD offered a complete package at cost at a time when we were not even sure that another generation of consoles would really sell. Luckily for us all. Today AMD has a superb CPU architecture in the shape of Ryzen which will offer a huge jump in CPU ability.

To take your second point first ; AMD offered a complete package at a cost .. 

 

Well precisely . There was a BOM cost that had to be met . Increasing the CPU cost means increasing your wholesale cost by that additional cost plus , the various overheads (in electronics manufacturing most of the additional costs , manufacturing overhead , profit et all are derived from the BOM as a percentage) . Profit in this instance being profit for the manufacturer ( the company that actually assembled the units) . Any increase hits Sony’s bottom line, assuming a fixed sale price . 
 

With regards to your first point , they are all things that are unquantifiable . At no point did I feel in Spider-Man that the city wasn’t utterly believable as a environment , it is bustling and full of life . God of war is held up as one of the generations best looking games ( along with horizon and DS) . I don’t miss what I don’t have in most games ; I’m playing the game and enjoying it , not thinking “man, this could have been much better with a better CPU”
Sure , 60fps at the same LOD would be lovely , but we are talking about a machine from 2012 .
I agree that the CPU was/is seen as a weak point for the system. But that doesn’t mean it was the wrong choice ; it was a choice that had to be made . And given the quality of games we have got from PS4 I would say It did the job . 

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