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PlayStation 5 - Next gen is expensive


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When people see this difference between 1080 and 4K, could it actually be HDR they are really seeing the difference in? HDR tends to be packaged with 4K but not with 1080 (I know there's no technical reason to bundle them like that, it's just how it's mostly done).

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Depends what content you're talking about, as well. With something like Netflix or other video, what you're seeing as the difference is bitrate/compression in the main, not resolution.

 

This isn't true of games, but maybe stuff like aliasing etc comes into it. I'd be surprised if you could reliably blindly tell the difference between 4K and 1080p super-sampled from reasonable viewing distances.

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38 minutes ago, petrolgirls said:

 

No you can't.

I absolutely can. There is no argument here. It’s 100% fact.

 

Edit: Just to add a bit of context here, I’m specifically thinking about movies watched from disc. I’ve watched Infinity War in both 1080 and 4K and there is definitely a leap in clarity on the 4K version. I’ve had the same with games as well, Forza Horizon 4 looks way better to me at 4K/30 over 1080/60, but that could well be down to other things like aliasing, etc, as people have mentioned.

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29 minutes ago, PeteBrant said:

Is finishing returns a real thing ? Yes . It all depends on the size of your screen and your distance from it . 
yes you can tell 4K From 1080 but it’s not the leap that 480 to 1080 is , despite being proportionally (give  or take) the same increase in pixels 

This makes sense. Maybe I’ll have to move my couch a couple of metres closer when 8K is a thing. Or get a bigger TV.

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39 minutes ago, Nick R said:

 

Time for THE GRAPHS:twisted:

 

These are the ones that I used to see posted a lot:

 

cKwLiVr.png

 

pSmGSJq.png

 

But now they seem to be superseded by this contradictory one, which apparently is different because it accounts for our perception of colour and motion:

 

zSRSeVE.png

That top one is great. It says for a 55” TV at 5m away, I can only really benefit from 720! Absolutely amazing!

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I'd say there's a big difference between real-time 3D graphics and playing back video footage when it comes to resolution. Many aspects of a game's image will be tied to the resolution it's rendered at: we aren't just talking about aliasing of actual polygons or texture detail, you also have all the screen-space effects like reflections or volumetric lights that would tend to run at some fraction of native resolution. Films would tend to be derived from a 'perfect' source, whether that be real world footage or supersampled offline render.

 

That said, I see no reason for games to go above true 4K for a very long time. The exponential processing power required would be far better spent on other areas of perceptible image quality, plus modern image reconstruction techniques are already surprisingly effective: I'm not sure 'true' 4K is going to be worthwhile target for a lot of next-gen games when scaling back a bit would net huge performance gains, although I could see launch games erring towards that native resolution just to avoid the pitchfork brigade.

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42 minutes ago, JPL said:

I absolutely can. There is no argument here. It’s 100% fact.

 

Edit: Just to add a bit of context here, I’m specifically thinking about movies watched from disc. I’ve watched Infinity War in both 1080 and 4K and there is definitely a leap in clarity on the 4K version. I’ve had the same with games as well, Forza Horizon 4 looks way better to me at 4K/30 over 1080/60, but that could well be down to other things like aliasing, etc, as people have mentioned.

From 5 meters away ??? What size screen do you have ?

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40 minutes ago, petrolgirls said:

 

No, I'm sorry it's nonsense. I work with 2K and 4K sources and regularly need to check what resolution I'm outputing despite working with fully uncompressed imagery, viewing on a large professionally calibrated screen a few feet away, having 20/20 vision and knowing exactly what to look for - as do my colleagues (the company I currently work with did most of the principle VFX work on Infinity War). The idea that you can 'easily tell the difference' 5m away is just rubbish. Things like compression levels, HDR and in games stuff like LOD and anti-aliasing make a difference but it should be obvious to you that this is not the same thing as resolution. Even then, if you were to turn off HDR you'd have bugger all chance of distinguishing between Infinity War at 2K vs 4K from 5 metres away. 

You can be the foremost expert in the world, but I’m telling you that I can see the difference. There is no argument you can make that’s going to change the actual facts.

 

I thought my mentioning of the Infinity War Blu-rays would show that I’ve done a good test, but is there anything else I can try to prove it?

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7 minutes ago, Broker said:

What kind of house do you live in that you can even be 5m from the TV? And why would you choose to? 

I live in a farmhouse. This is my current view from the couch. Let’s not get into the TV being too high or over the wood burner though, eh?!

 

6B09E772-F0D0-41E6-96DD-B077E7F48C00.jpeg
 

Edit: Not sure why it’s rotated that image.

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4 hours ago, joffocakes said:

I assumed the 8k capability would refer to video output for films and TV rather than a rendering resolution for games.

 

Given that 4k is only really on online streaming services at the moment in any decent capacity (or UltraHD Blu-Rays) we are a long, long away from having the content to support 8k TVs.

 

3 hours ago, petrolgirls said:

 

It would be essentially indistinguishable from the same game at 4K. Even standing a few inches from the screen you'd struggle to differentiate the two. Resolution suffers badly from diminishing returns at this level - I can't see most devs worrying about 8K next gen, with ray tracing I reckon you'll see several games come in well under 4K but look amazing.

 

1 hour ago, petrolgirls said:

 

No you can't.

 

Respectfully disagree. I have a 55" LG OLED and I sit just over two metres from the screen (London apartments are small!) and I can absolutely tell the difference between 4k and 1080p, both when taking an input from my PC or when watching live content.

 

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

When people see this difference between 1080 and 4K, could it actually be HDR they are really seeing the difference in? HDR tends to be packaged with 4K but not with 1080 (I know there's no technical reason to bundle them like that, it's just how it's mostly done).

 

No, there are tons of non-HDR 4k sources. For example - my PC. But also almost all the 4k films on Netflix and Prime that aren't made by them are 4k but not HDR.

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13 minutes ago, Isaac said:

Respectfully disagree. I have a 55" LG OLED and I sit just over two metres from the screen (London apartments are small!) and I can absolutely tell the difference between 4k and 1080p, both when taking an input from my PC or when watching live content

 

At 2m you're right on the edge and much of the perceived difference is due to bitrates and hdr. JPL is claiming he can 'easily see' the difference at 5m away independent of these factors. He can't. 

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2 minutes ago, petrolgirls said:

 

At 2m you're right on the edge and much of the perceived difference is due to bitrates and hdr. JPL is claiming he can 'easily see' the difference at 5m away independent of these factors. He can't. 

I can.

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4 minutes ago, petrolgirls said:

 

At 2m you're right on the edge and much of the perceived difference is due to bitrates and hdr. JPL is claiming he can 'easily see' the difference at 5m away independent of these factors. He can't. 

 

Plugging my PC into the TV means bitrates and HDR are completely excluded from the equation and I can immediately see a huge difference, particularly in games.

 

I know this because my graphics card struggles to run newer games at 4k and so I regularly have to drop to 1440p or 1080p whilst playing a game and it looks immediately significantly worse.

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Just now, Isaac said:

 

Plugging my PC into the TV means bitrates and HDR are completely excluded from the equation and I can immediately see a huge difference, particularly in games.

 

At 2m not 5m - and I'd argue a 'huge' difference is overstating your case. Poorly anti-aliased games will offer the most noticeable difference between resolutions for sure. Films and TV, however, are essentially indistinguishable over 5 metres from a 55" screen especially if you remove bitrate and HDR from the equation. 

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3 hours ago, JPL said:

I sit over 5m away and I can easily see the difference!

 

2 hours ago, petrolgirls said:

 

No you can't.

 

1 hour ago, JPL said:

I absolutely can. 

1 hour ago, petrolgirls said:

No, I'm sorry it's nonsense.

 

30 minutes ago, JPL said:

 I’m telling you that I can see the difference. 

11 minutes ago, petrolgirls said:

He can't. 

 

8 minutes ago, JPL said:

I can.


 

I prefer the original.

 

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43 minutes ago, JPL said:

You can be the foremost expert in the world, but I’m telling you that I can see the difference. There is no argument you can make that’s going to change the actual facts.

 

I thought my mentioning of the Infinity War Blu-rays would show that I’ve done a good test, but is there anything else I can try to prove it?

 

The knowledge of which source you're viewing can influence whether you think you can tell the difference. If you're manually swapping the source over from a standard Blu-Ray to a 4K video, your biased knowledge that the latter should look better can make you think you see the difference you expect to see, when you really can't.

 

It's like when audiophiles boast of being able to tell the difference between 320kbps CBR MP3s, versus lossless FLAC CD rips, versus 24-bit/192kHz files. Did they choose their own source each time they did a comparison (in which case their conclusion "the 24/192 version sounds better!" will be biased), or did they correctly set up a randomised double-blind ABX test?

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6 minutes ago, Nick R said:

 

The knowledge of which source you're viewing can influence whether you think you can tell the difference. If you're manually swapping the source over from a standard Blu-Ray to a 4K video, your biased knowledge that the latter should look better can make you think you see the difference you expect to see, when you really can't.

 

It's like when audiophiles boast of being able to tell the difference between 320kbps CBR MP3s, versus lossless FLAC CD rips, versus 24-bit/192kHz files. Did they choose their own source each time they did a comparison (in which case their conclusion "the 24/192 version sounds better!" will be biased), or did they correctly set up a randomised double-blind ABX test?

Nah, I can just tell the difference. The image definitely looks sharper. It’s really that simple.

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3 minutes ago, Rumspringa said:

There's also pretty big differences in human vision that don't seem to be accounted for. I was always surprised (before my eyes started melting) by how poor 20:20 actually is, I think 20:10 has been recorded. 

 

Maybe I’ve just got shit hot vision and petrolgirls is blind as a bat!

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4 minutes ago, mansizerooster said:

Maybe it won't matter because most devs will probably target running their games at 1440p to leave enough grunt to give lots of bells, whistles and 60fps. The PS3/360 gen was marketed as a true HD/1080p leap, but in actual fact most of the stuff that came out was 720p.

 

You had an Xbox One didn't you?

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Just now, mansizerooster said:

 

Nope. Had a 360 and PS3 in the gen I mentioned, and I've had a PS4 this gen.

 

Yeah i misread, 360 and PS3 were actually sub-HD for most things, certainly as games got prettier towards the end of the generation they started rendering sub 720p to maintain framerates.

 

The launch Xbox One was horribly under powered and only does 720p native on a lot of stuff,  I very much doubt PS5 or XSX will achieve native 4k if games are going to look better than this gen's graphical showcases.

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