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PlayStation 5 - Next gen is expensive


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21 minutes ago, Haribokart said:

Why are these Xbox fanboys like fucking JPL so obsessed with talking about PlayStation all the time? It's like how Apple threads are full of Android/Windows people, I don't get it.

What are you on about now? I'm interested in talking about it because I'll be getting one. I'll leave the pathetic fanboy nonsense to you. Grow up.

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23 minutes ago, Haribokart said:

Why are these Xbox fanboys like fucking JPL so obsessed with talking about PlayStation all the time? It's like how Apple threads are full of Android/Windows people, I don't get it.

 

rent freeeeeeee

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1 hour ago, footle said:

Based on 76 preorders, 55 of which were for variants of the PS5. I might well believe the headline, but I'm not really convinced about the methodology.

Wow, seriously, what is up with journalism these days, I mean quoting stats is one thin by ones that are not large enough to be statistically relevant is just click bait. Expected more from GI. 

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1 minute ago, JPL said:

They should have protected it with a cardboard box.

 

The whole console comes with a cardboad box, image below with a man for size comparison.

 

Spoiler

image.png

 

 

 

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Is this *really* great engineering from Sony, or did they just build a system and then have to chuck a ruddy monster cooling solution at it to make it workable? I mean, haven't MS got more performance in a smaller unit with less brute force scale?

 

I just find it odd that people are saying how well engineered this all looks - when to me it looks like they've had to throw the kitchen sink at the thing to ensure it stays cool and that means a far bigger unit than they ideally wanted surely?

 

It doesn't matter obviously, I just don't get the praise - it's not exactly elegant or anything really.

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@rgraves I'm not particularly impressed. It reminds me a lot of the original Xbox One design - a giant box with plenty of spare room knocking around inside it, and a monster heatsink and fan, because they were terrified of having another RROD fiasco on their hands.

 

The one thing that they have going for them is that the monster cooler is allowing them to run their chip faster than the Xbox equivalent, and get that bit more from less. This doesn't really make a difference from a consumer perspective, though - regardless of how clever the cooling is, it doesn't change the fact that you're paying the same £450 and still getting less performance.

 

The only bits I really like are the dust catchers and the fact that the storage can be expanded with non-proprietary hardware.

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12 minutes ago, rgraves said:

Is this *really* great engineering from Sony, or did they just build a system and then have to chuck a ruddy monster cooling solution at it to make it workable? I mean, haven't MS got more performance in a smaller unit with less brute force scale?

 

I just find it odd that people are saying how well engineered this all looks - when to me it looks like they've had to throw the kitchen sink at the thing to ensure it stays cool and that means a far bigger unit than they ideally wanted surely?

 

It doesn't matter obviously, I just don't get the praise - it's not exactly elegant or anything really.

 

They are getting incredibly impressive performance for the amount of compute units on the chip (36) due to how highly they can clock (up to around 2.2ghz). The extent a system can push graphical power is a combination of the cores/compute units in addition to the frequency they run at.

 

Microsoft have significantly more compute units (52) but are running at a lower clock speed of 1.8ghz . MS strategy has been to pay for a more expensive chip with more compute units and clock it more conservatively to get more power and Sony has been to get a less dense chip with less compute units and clock is absurdly high so two entirely different and valid approaches. I am guessing MS are taking a bigger financial loss on each unit as each chip likely costs more than the specific cooling measures by Sony. Sony likely did not want to take as much of a significant loss (that MS can easily swallow) but due to this cooling solution they should get very impressive performance for the hardware that is in there.

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27 minutes ago, petrolgirls said:

 

I can't see any snark or feigned politeness from anyone. You're generally a level headed sort of chap but that response struck me as oddly combative.

I removed my post. I accept it's me and I'll handle it accordingly. 

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34 minutes ago, rgraves said:

Is this *really* great engineering from Sony, or did they just build a system and then have to chuck a ruddy monster cooling solution at it to make it workable? I mean, haven't MS got more performance in a smaller unit with less brute force scale?

 

I just find it odd that people are saying how well engineered this all looks - when to me it looks like they've had to throw the kitchen sink at the thing to ensure it stays cool and that means a far bigger unit than they ideally wanted surely?

 

It doesn't matter obviously, I just don't get the praise - it's not exactly elegant or anything really.

 

26 minutes ago, HarryBizzle said:

@rgraves I'm not particularly impressed. It reminds me a lot of the original Xbox One design - a giant box with plenty of spare room knocking around inside it, and a monster heatsink and fan, because they were terrified of having another RROD fiasco on their hands.

 

The one thing that they have going for them is that the monster cooler is allowing them to run their chip faster than the Xbox equivalent, and get that bit more from less. This doesn't really make a difference from a consumer perspective, though - regardless of how clever the cooling is, it doesn't change the fact that you're paying the same £450 and still getting less performance.

 

The only bits I really like are the dust catchers and the fact that the storage can be expanded with non-proprietary hardware.

Two patents - one radical approach to semi conductor cooling and another for using Liquid metal in mass manufacture, which apparently has never been done before, this not engineering enough for you ... The Xbox One was literally empty inside for passive cooling, every inch of volume in the PS5 is taken up.

 

I'd have to say the Series X is a marvel of engineering as well but it clearly shows to different approaches to match the configuration of the SoC. Cheaper SoC higher clocks, more heat, more space dedicated to cooling VS lower clocks more expensive SoC less space taken by cooling. 

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20 minutes ago, Quexex said:

 

Two patents - one radical approach to semi conductor cooling and another for using Liquid metal in mass manufacture, which apparently has never been done before, this not engineering enough for you ... The Xbox One was literally empty inside for passive cooling, every inch of volume in the PS5 is taken up.

 

I think I'd be a lot more impressed if the end result weren't so enormous. I think the two patents you point to are certainly interesting, but I don't know if I'd call what is essentially a fancy heatsink "radical," - they're basically just miniature heatpipes going through the PCB, right? I think it's difficult to assess how good it actually is without actually being able to compare it to something else. The heatsink is also enormous - so I don't think it's 100% clear which bit is doing the heavy lifting. Presumably they wouldn't go to the expense of doing it if it wasn't effective, though.

 

I'm definitely curious about how they're applying the liquid metal. If anyone's ever cracked open a current gen console, until now, the thermal paste application has been horrendous. In the consumer PC market, though, liquid metal has never really been that impressive. You get maybe a few degrees of improvement over other good thermal compounds, for a lot of added cost.

 

 

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1 minute ago, HarryBizzle said:

 

I think I'd be a lot more impressed if the end result weren't so enormous. I think the two patents you point to are certainly interesting, but I don't know if I'd call what is essentially a fancy heatsink "radical," and I think it's difficult to assess how good it actually is without actually being able to compare it to something else. The heatsink is also enormous - so I don't think it's 100% clear which bit is doing the heavy lifting. Presumably they wouldn't go to the expense of doing it if it wasn't effective, though.

 

I'm definitely curious about how they're applying the liquid metal. If anyone's ever cracked open a current gen console, until now, the thermal paste application has been horrendous. In the consumer PC market, though, liquid metal has never really been that impressive. You get maybe a few degrees of improvement over other good thermal compounds, for a lot of added cost.

 

 


A few degrees is huge when you are pushing something, I paid about £1200 back in the day to get a few degrees cooler as you you clock so much higher - mind this was pre liquid metal when we didn’t mess about and took the heat spreaders off and lapped the chips ;) 

 

As a former pc cooling nerd I’m super impressed with Sony’s setup, if it’s as cool as they suggest it’s seriously impressive for air and heat pipes - heat pipes are pretty useless in enclosed space so there is plenty of magic going on and in reality the size of the cooling setup isn’t that big for the heat it’s dealing with.

 

I think the console is possibly the worst looking one ever rap with the drive bulge but the internals look immense - Sony should have just put it in a windowed slim pc case.....

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A new presumably PS5 compatible SSD has been announced: https://www.anandtech.com/show/16149/western-digital-launches-new-wd-black-nvme-ssds-and-thunderbolt-dock

 

$229. So I don't think there will be much difference between the cost of expanding the SSD storage on both consoles. But of course those prices will come down when competition and supply increase. But Xbox has also announced more options down the line, so I expect that ultimately, both will have competitive (market-based pricing).

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2 hours ago, Mr Combo Breaker said:

PS5 - Console of the uneducated should be Xbox's new slogan :lol: 

It came out a bit harsh but what I meant to say is that most people just go for the next version of whatever they own without too much thought and consideration if that is the best on offer as well as the best for their needs (and wallet). 

 

You can see this also by communities... the PS4/PS5 reddit are full of annoying fanboys while the Xbox ones are much more calm and civil. But this will flip when the coins flip between brands so nothing to do with Sony or Microsoft, just with having the dominant platform (which attracts people sensitive to buying the brand and vigorously defending that).

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We'll only really be able to judge the success of both machines cooling solutions, when they're out in the wild and playing AAA next gen games in the searing summer heat.

 

They've both gone with really quite innovative solutions, with SX's split motherboard and PS5's liquid metal solution. Plenty to geek out over. :)

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I think it’s pretty impressive that they’ve taken cooling so seriously, but I don’t know why you think the series x lying on its side is going to have particular cooling issues - heat rising upwards isn’t a significant factor if you’ve enough air moving through your box, and that’s just dependent on the pressure created by the fan.

 

what I do like about the series x is the split motherboard for compactness, and for the PS5 the dust collectors, the fact you can’t stick something into the fan by accident (though thinking about it, it’s never been a problem with a pc) and I’m hopeful that that pretty deep fan will move some serious air.
 

the gushing over the stand screw is just weird. Who gives a toss, really?

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They’re both very different, very interesting approaches to how to build a console that needs to dissipate about 300W of heat. Neither is, I think, particularly simple or represents any cut corners, both have their own economical aspects and expenses associated with them. Sony clearly thought the space and material costs of a heat sink were justified over the technological cost of a vapour chamber; I wonder if they also put a hard limit on how big they were going to allow the console to be in its slimmest dimension, even if that meant making it larger everywhere else and having a more involved air path. (The PS5 can fit in to a shelf that’s one inch narrower than Series X.)

 

But Series X’s cooling approach is very, very clever. Using a vapour chamber would look like a big leap if One X hadn’t already used it.

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15 minutes ago, footle said:

but I don’t know why you think the series x lying on its side is going to have particular cooling issues - heat rising upwards isn’t a significant factor if you’ve enough air moving through your box, and that’s just dependent on the pressure created by the fan.

 

You probably know more about the physics of it than I do so I'm happy to be wrong. But the worry for my setup is it would be venting everything out of the side into the cavity between the console, side wall of the unit and the shelf above. And with that sort of sitting in there without any real air movement (other than more hot air increasing the pressure) the overall temp of the shelf space will go up (compared to something pulling from the fresh air at the front and spitting the hot out the back). I'm not 'concerned' as it's a big old fan in there and I'm sure it'll be fine, it was just a comparison between the two and an opinion that the PS5 way seems a bit better. 

 

 

15 minutes ago, footle said:

the gushing over the stand screw is just weird. Who gives a toss, really?

No gushing here. I'd rather the stand wasn't there at all to be honest, but it was a comment on engineering 'elegance' and for me that solution wins over this...

 

aMvcTeI.gif

 

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