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PlayStation 5 - Next gen is expensive


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6 minutes ago, teddymeow said:

I'm really keen on this so may well grab it on PS5. However I've also seen that it's going straight onto Apple Arcade too (and I was planning to sign-up to that for a bit soon to play Little Orpheus) so may end up doing a bit on the iPad. Will see what the reviews say about it across the various platforms I think.

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1 hour ago, footle said:

what I do like about the series x is the split motherboard for compactness, and for the PS5 the dust collectors, the fact you can’t stick something into the fan by accident (though thinking about it, it’s never been a problem with a pc) 

 

Something I never thought of until now after reading this, has the XSX got any protection from something being put in the holes at the top where the fan exhaust is? Seems like kids could force a few things in those big holes.

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4 hours ago, Shimmyhill said:


A few degrees is huge when you are pushing something, I paid about £1200 back in the day to get a few degrees cooler as you you clock so much higher - mind this was pre liquid metal when we didn’t mess about and took the heat spreaders off and lapped the chips ;) 

 

As a former pc cooling nerd I’m super impressed with Sony’s setup, if it’s as cool as they suggest it’s seriously impressive for air and heat pipes - heat pipes are pretty useless in enclosed space so there is plenty of magic going on and in reality the size of the cooling setup isn’t that big for the heat it’s dealing with.

 

I think the console is possibly the worst looking one ever rap with the drive bulge but the internals look immense - Sony should have just put it in a windowed slim pc case.....

 

Hey I might be speaking out of my ass since I have an actual liquid metal cooled CPU - but it is a big improvement over stock speeds for me - certainly more than a few degrees on an i7-8700k.

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35 minutes ago, Uzi said:

 

Hey I might be speaking out of my ass since I have an actual liquid metal cooled CPU - but it is a big improvement over stock speeds for me - certainly more than a few degrees on an i7-8700k.


Pretty much any specialist TIM will provide much better performance than the little slab they stick to a stock cooler though, won’t it? You just have to look at any roundup to see how close liquid metal and good pastes are. The biggest difference I’ve seen is like 3 degrees C.

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2 hours ago, FiveFootNinja said:

but there is nothing particularly innovative going on there engineering wise from what I've seen

Apart from the split motherboard design. And there's nothing innovative in Sony's solution as far as I can see either.


EDIT: Also I don't see anything wrong with the Series X running sideways when that's literally how PC's get cooled.

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8 minutes ago, HarryBizzle said:


Pretty much any specialist TIM will provide much better performance than the little slab they stick to a stock cooler though, won’t it? You just have to look at any roundup to see how close liquid metal and good pastes are. The biggest difference I’ve seen is like 3 degrees C.

This may be confusing the matter with paste on the IHS - higher end TIM's such as Noctua wouldn't cost much less than Thermal Grizzly liquid metal and yes there wouldn't be much difference in both cost and performance. Most PC users only use TIM on the IHS to make a seal between the IHS and heatsink.

 

However I am talking about liquid metal on the die - not the IHS - which it did have a big difference and why people delid certain processors with liquid metal and they see significant differences in temps (some up to 20c by doing this process). Sony are using liquid metal directly on the die.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Uzi said:

why people delid certain processors with liquid metal and they see significant differences in temps

That'll be why Intel went back to using solder between the die and IHS for the i7/i9 9k series onwards. The stuff they were using before was terrible.

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4 minutes ago, layten said:

That'll be why Intel went back to using solder between the die and IHS for the i7/i9 9k series onwards. The stuff they were using before was terrible.

It was fucking terrible yeah haha. Even with the improvement with the 9th gen series (which was needed as it was still a very toasty architecture with stuff like the i9) delidding still had a pretty big effect in some cases? I might pick up a 9900k in future but might leave it as is as it clearly looks like a pain in the ass to do

 

eg

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Uzi said:

It was fucking terrible yeah haha. Even with the improvement with the 9th gen series (which was needed as it was still a very toasty architecture with stuff like the i9) delidding still had a pretty big effect in some cases? I might pick up a 9900k in future but might leave it as is as it clearly looks like a pain in the ass to do

 

eg

 

 

Wow, I never thought CPUs were so robust. I can't imagine going to those lengths on such an expensive component. 

 

Anyway between us detective rllmuk have done our own digital foundry on the tear down. I have to admit I didn't realise the liquid metal was on the die. That is a totally different ball game. I wonder if Sony will run higher clocks?

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Quexex said:

Wow, I never though CPUs were so robust. I can't imagine going to those lengths on such an expensive component. 

 

Anyway between us detective rllmuk have done our own digital foundry on the tear down. I have to admit I didn't realise the liquid metal was on the die. That is a totally different ball game. I wonder if Sony will run higher clocks?

 

 

Looks like its on the die in the video but I'm no expert. I just think liquid metal on shit is cool as fuck (lol). I nerd out over a mainstream product doing it

 

Screenshot_20201007_162118_com.google.android.youtube.thumb.jpg.0363f577e6129179f714f5aa08c6645c.jpg

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8 minutes ago, Uzi said:

Looks like its on the die in the video but I'm no expert. I just think liquid metal on shit is cool as fuck (lol). I nerd out over a mainstream product doing it

 

Screenshot_20201007_162118_com.google.android.youtube.thumb.jpg.0363f577e6129179f714f5aa08c6645c.jpg

It's amazing how console design for the PS5 and XSX are really pushing the boundaries on electronic engineering. Well worth digging in too. 

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It is very exciting. @HarryBizzle said earlier that despite the pretty nuts cooling on the PS5 - Series X ultimately still has 52 CU's and no cooling in the world can realistically make up for the hardware difference and if I wasn't intending to get a high end GPU (when they actually sell some) - the Series X is definitely better performance per pound as a consumer. I would pick it up in addition to a PS5.

 

As a tech enthusiast I can say both MS and Sony have blown me away for what they are offering for £449 (or cheaper digital hardware). Both companies are definitely taking a hit on it though but the hardware is incredible value and very little has been compromised on clearly.

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1 hour ago, Uzi said:

It was fucking terrible yeah haha. Even with the improvement with the 9th gen series (which was needed as it was still a very toasty architecture with stuff like the i9) delidding still had a pretty big effect in some cases? I might pick up a 9900k in future but might leave it as is as it clearly looks like a pain in the ass to do

 

eg

 

 


Ahhh man that would be me if I still was into  pc stuff - nothing like taking a heat spreader off a brand new chip that’s cost more that these consoles!!

 

I think Sony and MS have both got excellent cooling solutions full of innovation - yes they are based around tech that’s been used before but the way they are using it is impressive - bravo to both!

 

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9 hours ago, Uzi said:

This may be confusing the matter with paste on the IHS - higher end TIM's such as Noctua wouldn't cost much less than Thermal Grizzly liquid metal and yes there wouldn't be much difference in both cost and performance. Most PC users only use TIM on the IHS to make a seal between the IHS and heatsink.

 

However I am talking about liquid metal on the die - not the IHS - which it did have a big difference and why people delid certain processors with liquid metal and they see significant differences in temps (some up to 20c by doing this process). Sony are using liquid metal directly on the die.

 

 

This is a good point, I hadn’t noticed they’ve got no IHS on the die. The ones on consoles are usually very small and thin pieces of metal so they almost look similar. 

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13 hours ago, FiveFootNinja said:

Strange comment.

 

If you are talking about looks then yes, I agree it's not elegant at all (but then again nor is the Series X - that is just a less fussy slightly smaller lump).

 

I'm not trying to make out the Series X is any more 'elegant', my comment really comes from: there is no way on earth Sony wanted it that big - it's that big because *(seeing the internals) they obviously hit a roadblock with cooling and had no choice in it. That being the case, it's not an elegant design - it's one born out of necessity that they've not been able to do much about even by throwing a lot of smart engineering at it. Yes some of the stuff inside is new and nice and fancy - but that doesn't make it an elegant solution as a whole unit - it makes me wonder how big the thing was before they bit the bullet on the cost of all that stuff (because, again, I bet you they did not originally set out wanting to have to use a heatsink that big or liquid metal for example).

 

Going back to MS - I actually bet you they were worried about the size of their box - I bet they thought it might be too big but just couldn't get it smaller. I bet they breathed a HUGE sigh of relief when they saw Sony had faced the same issue and not been able to do any better.

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46 minutes ago, rgraves said:

I'm not trying to make out the Series X is any more 'elegant', my comment really comes from: there is no way on earth Sony wanted it that big - it's that big because *(seeing the internals) they obviously hit a roadblock with cooling and had no choice in it. That being the case, it's not an elegant design - it's one born out of necessity that they've not been able to do much about even by throwing a lot of smart engineering at it. Yes some of the stuff inside is new and nice and fancy - but that doesn't make it an elegant solution as a whole unit - it makes me wonder how big the thing was before they bit the bullet on the cost of all that stuff (because, again, I bet you they did not originally set out wanting to have to use a heatsink that big or liquid metal for example).

 

Masayasu Ito, (EVP, Hardware Engineering and Operation) has said:

 

Quote

The PS5's SoC is a small die running at a very high clock rate. This led to a very high thermal density in the silicon die, which required us to significantly increase the performance of the thermal conductor, also known as the TIM, that sits between the SoC and heat sink. The PS5 utilizes liquid metal as the TIM to ensure long-term, stable, high cooling performance. We have spent over two years preparing the adoption of this liquid metal cooling mechanism. Various conceivable tests have been conducted during its adoption process.

 

https://www.tweaktown.com/news/75545/playstation-5-uses-liquid-metal-compound-to-cool-soc-sony-confirms/index.html

 

I think it's clear that very early on in the design process, Sony decided to go with a high clocked system and so designed the cooling tech accordingly. Even this Smart Shift technology points to them choosing to push the GPU as hard as they could, very early on in the design process. I'm sure they've tried to squeeze all that tech into as small a box as they could and props to MS for what they have achieved, but anecdotal reports are that the PS5 remains "cold to the touch and silent" after multiple hours of play, so whilst it is indeed a big fella, I think they've been planning to build a hot machine which will need a lot of cooling from very early on in the process.

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Hasn’t it been described as cold to the touch by people who weren’t allowed to touch it?

 

And I wonder what that’s based on. Touching the white panels is going to be cool. There’s no air flow under them and they’re not in main contact with the chassis. I expect the air coming out of the bottom will be warm. 

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2 minutes ago, HarryBizzle said:

Hasn’t it been described as cold to the touch by people who weren’t allowed to touch it?

 

And I wonder what that’s based on. Touching the white panels is going to be cool. There’s no air flow under them and they’re not in main contact with the chassis. I expect the air coming out of the bottom will be warm. 

Quite. My PC is cold to the touch. The heatsinks aren't, because they're not meant to be.

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