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PlayStation 5 - Next gen is here!


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15 minutes ago, Quexex said:

I thought DV allowed you to have dynamic HDR ranges that could change depending on the scene, which I would have thought might well be useful for games as you transition between light and dark areas etc.


So, the basic problem with HDR is that no TV that exists can actually show the full HDR dynamic range. But for static content like movies you’re obviously stuck with the HDR file you’ve got, and somehow you have to display that on a monitor that doesn’t have the capability.
 

The simplest solution is to cram down (tone map) the entire movie in to the range the TV supports, on the basis of a measurement of the brightest point in the entire movie. This is static HDR metadata. Unfortunately it means that even a scene that is practically pitch black and fits in the TV’s range will be crammed down by the same amount and be over-darkened.

 

A better solution is to tone map each scene or shot down into the TV’s range based on the brightest point in that scene. This is dynamic HDR metadata like Dolby Vision, or the dynamic tone mapping option in the set itself. Everything gets crunched just enough to be displayed and no more.

 

For games, you can simply tone-map the scene to fit in the TV’s dynamic range when you render it. And because not all HDR TVs support Dolby Vision, every HDR game already does this.*
 

That’s actually what HDR Rendering has done since the mid-2000s: the game has a higher internal dynamic range than an SDR TV supports, and you map it down to the 100 or 200 nits of a standard monitor. HDR TVs just give the developer a wider dynamic range to render out to, of 500-1000 nits. (Setting that number is what calibration screens and HGIG modes do.)

 

You can use Dolby Vision in games, but it basically means deferring the tone mapping step to the TV’s built in computer which is slow and stupid, instead of just doing it in the console.
 

*Not always very well, though.

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Actually, lingering on that last added parenthetical, it may well be that getting your TV to do it will be better than many developers’ implementations of tone mapping…

 

Edit - Also sorry if that was explaining something you already know, I tend to go back to first principles when something’s this complicated to make sure I’m making sense, and hopefully it makes it more obvious if I’ve missed something obvious. (Not just to you but to anyone else in this thread.) I guess the short answer is “yes, but the game should be doing that”.

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5 hours ago, footle said:

I've got it in my feed (and still have it in my feed), so "probably not fake". They could get lost at £70.

I am bemused by the low level of engagement.

 

 

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My mate showed me that. They would have to do something big to justify that price.

For the love of god at least let me upload all my cloud saves without constantly having to delete saves I do actually want to keep.

 

I bought another 12 months for just 32 quid.

£70 would have to include psnow for me but that’s only available in a handful of countries.

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1 hour ago, Alex W. said:


So, the basic problem with HDR is that no TV that exists can actually show the full HDR dynamic range. But for static content like movies you’re obviously stuck with the HDR file you’ve got, and somehow you have to display that on a monitor that doesn’t have the capability.
 

The simplest solution is to cram down (tone map) the entire movie in to the range the TV supports, on the basis of a measurement of the brightest point in the entire movie. This is static HDR metadata. Unfortunately it means that even a scene that is practically pitch black and fits in the TV’s range will be crammed down by the same amount and be over-darkened.

 

A better solution is to tone map each scene or shot down into the TV’s range based on the brightest point in that scene. This is dynamic HDR metadata like Dolby Vision, or the dynamic tone mapping option in the set itself. Everything gets crunched just enough to be displayed and no more.

 

For games, you can simply tone-map the scene to fit in the TV’s dynamic range when you render it. And because not all HDR TVs support Dolby Vision, every HDR game already does this.*
 

That’s actually what HDR Rendering has done since the mid-2000s: the game has a higher internal dynamic range than an SDR TV supports, and you map it down to the 100 or 200 nits of a standard monitor. HDR TVs just give the developer a wider dynamic range to render out to, of 500-1000 nits. (Setting that number is what calibration screens and HGIG modes do.)

 

You can use Dolby Vision in games, but it basically means deferring the tone mapping step to the TV’s built in computer which is slow and stupid, instead of just doing it in the console.
 

*Not always very well, though.

I thought Dolby Vision was an additional HDR “standard”, which has capacity for 12-bit vs HDR10’s 10-bit colour depth on top of all that metadata malarkey? So if your TV has the required additional contrast range and brightness, supported software could deliver a broader image?

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The next Gran Turismo and God of War have both been confirmed to be cross gen games. 

 

Quote

Where it makes sense to develop a title for both PS4 and PS5 — for Horizon Forbidden West, the next God of War, GT7 — we’ll continue looking at that. And if PS4 owners want to play that game, then they can. If they want to go on and play the PS5 version, that game will be there for them.

 

https://blog.playstation.com/2021/06/02/hermen-hulst-qa-whats-next-for-playstation-studios/#sf246401757

 

God of War is delayed to 2022 as well. 

 

 

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We’ll be seeing more cross-gen games the longer the console shortage continues I imagine. These kind of big budget games need way bigger user-bases to be profitable.

 

Bit of a shame personally but then I’m lucky to have a PS5 I guess.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Alex W. said:

Actually, lingering on that last added parenthetical, it may well be that getting your TV to do it will be better than many developers’ implementations of tone mapping…

 

Edit - Also sorry if that was explaining something you already know, I tend to go back to first principles when something’s this complicated to make sure I’m making sense, and hopefully it makes it more obvious if I’ve missed something obvious. (Not just to you but to anyone else in this thread.) I guess the short answer is “yes, but the game should be doing that”.

Don't be sorry I appreciate the detailed description, I now feel more informed on the matter. For me personally I wanted DV added for UHD disc playback as games seem to be fine as they are (for the reasons you have stated). However I seem to recall complaining about this before to be told I would have to be watching a UHD disc with and without DV on the same display to notice any kind of perceivable difference.

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Do cross-gen games actually achieve good sales on the older system? All the sales data that’s come out for Spiderman Miles Morales points to massive weighting towards PS5 purchases over PS4 despite a much smaller player base. 
 

And I don’t know the numbers but I never got the impression that the PS360 versions of, say, Destiny or Metal Gear Solid 5 pulled up any trees commercially.

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3 minutes ago, Flanders said:

Do cross-gen games actually achieve good sales on the older system? All the sales data that’s come out for Spiderman Miles Morales points to massive weighting towards PS5 purchases over PS4 despite a much smaller player base. 
 

And I don’t know the numbers but I never got the impression that the PS360 versions of, say, Destiny or Metal Gear Solid 5 pulled up any trees commercially.

Well why do it then?

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Cant say im pleased. Another reason why i should have held off buying a PS5. 

 

My PS4 would have done the job for another 2 years it seems. Oh well. 

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28 minutes ago, Quexex said:

Don't be sorry I appreciate the detailed description, I now feel more informed on the matter. For me personally I wanted DV added for UHD disc playback as games seem to be fine as they are (for the reasons you have stated). However I seem to recall complaining about this before to be told I would have to be watching a UHD disc with and without DV on the same display to notice any kind of perceivable difference.

I’ve got a fairly old LG LCD and I definitely prefer Dolby Vision for movies to the TV’s own tone mapping.

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26 minutes ago, Flanders said:

Do cross-gen games actually achieve good sales on the older system? All the sales data that’s come out for Spiderman Miles Morales points to massive weighting towards PS5 purchases over PS4 despite a much smaller player base. 
 

And I don’t know the numbers but I never got the impression that the PS360 versions of, say, Destiny or Metal Gear Solid 5 pulled up any trees commercially.

There's a difference between Miles Morales (a big content patch) and God Of War 2 or GT7.

I'm a bit disappointed by the cross-gen news, but not particularly surprised. We'll be waiting a while for something after Ratchet that really needs the SSD then as a fundamental aspect of the game. (I think I'm more disappointed by GT7 - surely really designing around a non-potato CPU would help?)

 

Flight Simulator for the only properly CPU intensive game in 2021-22?!

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I can't say it bothers me personally but it really does show how cynical and opportunistic that 'we believe in generations' quote was. They saw an area where Microsoft was getting some stick and sought to capitalise on it knowing full well most of their big games were also cross-gen. 

 

It'd be pretty funny if after all that Sony end up supporting the PS4 for longer than Microsoft the XB1.

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6 minutes ago, Majora said:

I can't say it bothers me personally but it really does show how cynical and opportunistic that 'we believe in generations' quote was. They saw an area where Microsoft was getting some stick and sought to capitalise on it knowing full well most of their big games were also cross-gen.

 

Wasn't it more of a dumb as fuck Jim Ryan quote rather than a company wide marketing slogan?

 

I mean even so, they already have put out Returnal and Demon's Souls, Ratchet is around the corner, so they believe in generations on the smaller, less expensive production things at least...

Did they announce GoW and GT7 were PS5 exclusives or did they just reveal them and people assumed/hoped they'd be PS5 only? It definitely sucks if you rushed out to buy a PS5 to play one of those games but let's not fucking kid ourselves here, if you rushed out to buy a PS5 to play GT7. You're not gonna be happy sat playing it at 30FPS/1080 on your PS4 when you know you could be playing it at 4K/60. :lol:

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5 minutes ago, Majora said:

I can't say it bothers me personally but it really does show how cynical and opportunistic that 'we believe in generations' quote was. They saw an area where Microsoft was getting some stick and sought to capitalise on it knowing full well most of their big games were also cross-gen. 

 

It'd be pretty funny if after all that Sony end up supporting the PS4 for longer than Microsoft the XB1.


Haven’t they more likely just assessed the ongoing situation with the pandemic and the supply of components/PS5s and decided that the best way to maximise revenue on these titles is to now make them cross-gen. I don’t think it’s that surprising a decision.

 

I just hope it doesn’t compromise GT7 and it’s a case of scaling back to run on PS4. It’ll be interesting to see how HZD compares PS4 to PS5 as an indication of perhaps what to expect.

 

Gives me more time to play GoW at least 😄.

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13 hours ago, Majora said:

 

It'd be pretty funny if after all that Sony end up supporting the PS4 for longer than Microsoft the XB1.


I think the stock shortages means there is a distinct possibility this might actually happen.  
 

Sony have already announced they don’t see any let up in shortages before the next financial year (So at least until April 22), and I just get the impression that MS are better positioned to cope not least because demand for the PS5 is almost certainly much higher than for Xbox.

 

So as Xbox’s become more freely available it could end up having a massive Impact on how this generation actually pans out, as it prevents Sony pulling into an unassailable lead, means Sony big hitters as we see here have to come out cross gen in order to be financially viable, and also allows MS some time to finally get around to releasing some actual games.

 

It will be Interesting to see how it works out.

 

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