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Football Thread 2019/2020

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3 minutes ago, bradigor said:

 

Fair enough, but having worked on many projects the ones that have tried to wait until perfect before launch have gone on to fail. Nothing is perfect, it's the way of life. 

 

Edit: Sorry @PeteBrant, I am sounding quite confrontational. Not meaning to be. 

It’s not confrontational mate it’s all good interesting debate :)

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Just now, PeteBrant said:

It’s not confrontational mate it’s all good interesting debate :)

 

Glad that's coming across. Went back reading and looked like I was being an arse :lol: 

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Just now, bradigor said:

 

Glad that's coming across. Went back reading and looked like I was being an arse :lol: 

Not in the slightest .

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6 minutes ago, Stoppy2000 said:

Would anyone prefer us to just go back to linesmen? 


Yes. None of this "assistant referee" rubbish.

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5 minutes ago, Fry Crayola said:

 

There's a difficulty there - goal line technology uses a spherical target, which happens to be particularly straightforward to triangulate an exact position and volume in 3D space from a few 2D cameras points. If it's accurate enough to know where the ball is, then it's trivial to determine if it's left a fixed rectangular field.

 

Players are not spheres, and the offside line is not a fixed position. It's a much, much more difficult problem to automate. Short of fitting every player with the equivalent of a motion capture bodysuit while they play, there's no simple way to get a 3D model of their body to work with and detect if they're onside or not. Any simplification of the player model is no better than what they're attempting now - other than the speed of the thing - and likely to introduce inaccuracies and the same level of teeth-grinding, letter-of-the-law bullshit that's currently fucking with a very simple rule.

In years to come (10? 20?) do you think full body motion sensors will be used? I wouldn't rule it out. It will eventually become like a future sport if videogames have taught me anything. 

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5 minutes ago, Stoppy2000 said:

Would anyone prefer us to just go back to linesmen? 

 

Nah, I think VAR's the way forward, they're just being too pernickity. If I agree with PeteBrant on one thing on this, it's that the technology is not ready, but only for what they're currently doing with it.

 

So, you have two choices. Either you scrap VAR entirely for offsides, which means we're back at the situation of flagging players incorrectly offside or letting bad goals stand because an assistant didn't see it right, or we take a different tack and stop trying to reduce offsides down to the exact precision we can't currently do.

 

Keep it a human decision, no magic lines drawn on the screen, if you can't tell by looking at a few angles then give the leeway to the attacker. Some goals are going to be scored that, to the letter of the law, should be offside. But the degree to which those players were offside would be so minimal the only people who'd be upset would be the opposing fans. 

 

If your implementation only annoys the people on the wrong end of it, it's a good implementation.

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3 minutes ago, Stoppy2000 said:

In years to come (10? 20?) do you think full body motion sensors will be used? 

 

I wouldn't be surprised. Much like many sports now use those little GPS trackers that sit cushioned on the upper back, it wouldn't surprise me of people were looking at better, more accurate ways to track player movements. But it wouldn't just be for official rule use. We'd be more likely to see it used by club analysts so they could get even more data, and by TV companies for ludicrous replays.

 

And then in about 30 years, the IFAB will trial it in a League Cup game.

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1 hour ago, bradigor said:

If there is nothing wrong with the law, then there is nothing wrong with the implementation of VAR for offsides. If any goalscoring part of the body can be offside, then every call from VAR has been correct. Because there hasn't been a case yet where the offside call has been factually incorrect. Like it or not. 

 

If we have people claiming it isn't within the spirit of the game, then that suggests the issue is with the way the law is written. 

 

Re-write the laws and make sure VAR is integral to them too. 

 

Eg: As @Gotters mentioned. No lines, just replys to eyeball it on screen. If they can't be sure, then no offside. Or Change the wording so that where the feet are planted at the time is the only part taken into consideration. 

 

It is evolving and will improve. We cannot expect perfection instantly. 

Maybe I just don't understand the way it's being displayed, but I see nothing in this freeze frame to suggest Pukki is offside. The lines are level. If nothing else they could change the way the graphics are produced so simple folk like me know what the VAR guy is actually basing his decision on.

IMG_20191228_183431.jpg

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1 hour ago, Papaya Dance said:

Maybe I just don't understand the way it's being displayed, but I see nothing in this freeze frame to suggest Pukki is offside. The lines are level. If nothing else they could change the way the graphics are produced so simple folk like me know what the VAR guy is actually basing his decision on.

IMG_20191228_183431.jpg

Pukki was onside regardless of what the big six lines say. 

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3 minutes ago, dr_manhattan^ said:

Pukki was onside regardless of what the big six lines say. 

The Sky commentators did say they'd been told it was because he came back from an offside position, which then changed to nope he was just plain offside. 

 

Sounded to me like the guy at stockley park ruled it out based on a law he'd just made up about coming from an offside position, then they changed their explanation to spare his blushes when they realised there is no such law.

 

Surely that can't be the case.

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2 hours ago, PeteBrant said:

Well you can discount most of those 20 players immediately . The system gets frozen at a point in time ( the point of ball delivery) and then highlights all players in an offside position , and then the ref makes a decision on if they were interfering with play . Until that can be done , then the system isn’t ready 

 

Arguing that it’s too difficult to automate says to me we shouldn’t be using it . It’s doesn’t say to me we should implement this half arsed system that causes a worse situation than we had before .
 

A system so bad , that people are actually arguing it’s the rules that are too strict and need to be changed to accommodate it . 

 

The rules don't need to be changed, the issue has been that as the speed of the game has increased an increasing number of poor decisions were being made. It was actually commentators and fans who started analysing every offside down to the last frame, arguably going against the original spirit or the rule, which was never intended to halt play because a striker was 1mm ahead of the last defender.

 

I disagree that the system needs to have this level of accuracy either, the offside rule in rugby is only eyeballed by the referee or TV match official to make sure it isn't a clear and obvious advantage. I'd argue that if you get to the point where you're having to draw lines across the pitch then it goes against the spirit of the rule anyway.

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19 minutes ago, phresh said:

 

The rules don't need to be changed, the issue has been that as the speed of the game has increased an increasing number of poor decisions were being made. It was actually commentators and fans who started analysing every offside down to the last frame, arguably going against the original spirit or the rule, which was never intended to halt play because a striker was 1mm ahead of the last defender.

 

I disagree that the system needs to have this level of accuracy either, the offside rule in rugby is only eyeballed by the referee or TV match official to make sure it isn't a clear and obvious advantage. I'd argue that if you get to the point where you're having to draw lines across the pitch then it goes against the spirit of the rule anyway.


and cricket has had umpires call for years, for the “clear and obvious cases”

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Pretty entertaining Old Firm game ends with Rangers winning to go within blah blah blah. Two sendings off at the end, one player, one angry looking man who could have been a parent or coach or partisan bystander.

 

Steven Gerrard is having it large on the pitch, quite the scenes.

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2 hours ago, Papaya Dance said:

Maybe I just don't understand the way it's being displayed, but I see nothing in this freeze frame to suggest Pukki is offside. The lines are level. If nothing else they could change the way the graphics are produced so simple folk like me know what the VAR guy is actually basing his decision on.

IMG_20191228_183431.jpg

 

You can see how ridiculous the current situation with offside is in that image. If we're just going from a 2D image like that, then the "any part of the body you can score with" rule is incompatible with the technology. It's the lines that are drawn from the body part to the grass that are the problem. You can't draw that accurately on a 2D image. It doesn't take into account the angle of Pukki's body beyond the way he's leaning in the specific 2D plane that the photo is taken from. You can't accurately judge exactly where the ground is, so if you stopped the vertical line from Pukki a millimeter either side of the defender's line it would seem just as accurate.

 

I'm explaining this really badly, I think. The bottom line is that unless they have access to some kind of super-accurate 3D imaging system that allows them to rotate the image around (and I'm pretty sure they don't) then you can't judge a marginal offside through the current VAR system. That goal was not offside. They're using images like the above to justify mistakes, not to make decisions more accurately. 

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19 hours ago, bradigor said:

 

VAR is a good technology run by imbeciles. 

 

Yep.  As anyone watching Chelsea - Arsenal just got a perfect demonstation of.

 

When Lee fucking Dixon thinks Arsenal should have had a penalty awarded against them then they should have.

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10 minutes ago, feltmonkey said:

 

You can see how ridiculous the current situation with offside is in that image. If we're just going from a 2D image like that, then the "any part of the body you can score with" rule is incompatible with the technology. It's the lines that are drawn from the body part to the grass that are the problem. You can't draw that accurately on a 2D image. It doesn't take into account the angle of Pukki's body beyond the way he's leaning in the specific 2D plane that the photo is taken from. You can't accurately judge exactly where the ground is, so if you stopped the vertical line from Pukki a millimeter either side of the defender's line it would seem just as accurate.

 

I'm explaining this really badly, I think. The bottom line is that unless they have access to some kind of super-accurate 3D imaging system that allows them to rotate the image around (and I'm pretty sure they don't) then you can't judge a marginal offside through the current VAR system. That goal was not offside. They're using images like the above to justify mistakes, not to make decisions more accurately. 

Nah I think you explained it well enough, you're right that it is just an arbitrary line from whatever point of the shoulder they've decided to wherever they think the ground is, in whatever they assume is the most direct route. They're possibly not even taking it from the defenders furthest point back, how have they decided his knee is in front of his shoulder?

 

Even if they could just display it in such a way that there's a red line and a blue line and the red line is in front of the blue line, so it's offside...that would help. But they can't, it's that close that I assume the lines merge into one. Or do they not show the blue line it it's offside. I dunno.

 

It's all stupid.

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Of course we are 2-0 up at Sheff Wednesday after playing like complete shit at home in the last two games.

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Wow.

 

After Arsenal opened the scoring they did look good - high pressing and some great passion.

My thought was that they'd run out of steam because they hadn't played at this place before.

 

Looks like it's come to that, they need some fitness.

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Just now, dr_manhattan^ said:

shocking defending from Arsenal

Why is it shocking? It's fucking normal from Arsenal.

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Jorginho should be off, the only reason he isn't is because Lacazette distracted the ref with an epic meltdown which distracted the ref from doing so.

 

He is why they may well lose this now.

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15 minutes ago, dr_manhattan^ said:

B team or at least 50% B team for Wolves at Liverpool. Thanks to the TV companies. 


This is a ridiculous period, especially with another round of league fixtures being squeezed in before the FA Cup next weekend. 

 

Hope today is still competitive. Wolves are a good side to watch, and would have liked to see how your first team got on at Anfield.

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